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Topic: How to measure film?

Richard Greco
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1180
From: Plant City, FL
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 04-24-2004 11:31 PM

Christopher,

I'm not sure why the studio sent that in the can to measure like that. I am thinking and I think that my counter goes to 16 frames and goes up a number. I think that it does count feet as well.

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Christopher Seo
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 530
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: Jun 99

posted 04-25-2004 09:08 AM

That means that your counter does indeed count frames and feet. Post make and model information and we could verify that, but I assume it's a Neumade.

Practice measuring with a scrap piece of film on which you have marked frame numbers, say from 1 to 32 (2 feet). Zero the counter by turning the knob toward you until the counter reads exactly 0 feet 0 frames, with the 0's centered in the display as closely as possible. Note that the film must travel from left to right for the counter to go forward. Put the film in the counter (in frame of course) so that the frame just before the '1' frame is on the top of the sprocket. Now, pull the film so that the '1' frame is on top; the counter should read 1 frame. The '16' frame should read as 1 foot; the '24' frame as 1 foot 8 frames; the '32' frame as 2 feet.

[ 04-25-2004, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: Christopher Seo ]

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Brian Guckian
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 594
From: Dublin, Ireland
Registered: Apr 2003

posted 04-26-2004 05:01 PM

Christopher asked :

quote: Christopher Seo
Is there anything wrong with the leader? Why would the letter ask to measure 12 feet from the 'START' frame when 3 feet from the '3' frame (assuming an Academy leader marked in foot increments) is much faster?

"12 feet from the Start Mark" is a standard reference for First Frame of Picture (FFP) that editorial staff use in post-production.

All the same thing, just different "languages"!

Personally I think it's a bit ambitious for the distributor to expect everybody to have frame counters (when they cost more than some xenon lamps do), and also the time to measure exactly to the correct frame if they don't - and this also promotes unnecessary handling of the picture as well.

As per Mike's post, the correct practice is to have the Lab scribe, on the interneg / neg, the frame line and the words "Cut Here" with an arrow pointing to the frame line. This obviously shows up very clearly in the black section of leader after the countdown.

Mike also said :

quote: Mike Blakesley
why do they cut reels at a point where there's a long black stretch. They should know it's just asking for trouble.

The film must have had a fade out at the end of reel 4, and hence reel 5 fades in. Or perhaps reel 5 starts black for other reasons, e.g. a black screen that sometimes turns out to be a clever camera move where they start on a person's back or something - we've all seen it!

It's sometimes difficult for editors to avoid fades or cuts to and from black at the start and ends of reels. This is because the reels are "balanced" so that scenes start at the head and end at the tail. If you think about it, putting reel changes in the middle of scenes would be a nightmare in terms of dialogue / sound effects editing, as well as grading issues.

I once worked as an assistant picture and sound editor - and very enjoyable it was too...if you're into that kind of thing!

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 04-26-2004 05:15 PM

quote: Brian Guckian
It's sometimes difficult for editors to avoid fades or cuts to and from black at the start and ends of reels. This is because the reels are "balanced" so that scenes start at the head and end at the tail. If you think about it, putting reel changes in the middle of scenes would be a nightmare in terms of dialogue / sound effects editing, as well as grading issues.

OK, I can see that, but if I was a film maker I think I would prefer a couple of frames mid-scene being lost over the 8-week mainstream life of the print, rather than an entire scene being screwed up for the whole run because some idiot removed four feet of black film and screwed up my fade-in!

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Brian Guckian
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 594
From: Dublin, Ireland
Registered: Apr 2003

posted 04-26-2004 05:26 PM

But wouldn't mid-scene be even worse? You now have sound and picture discontinuity. Unless said scene was static, any interruption would be noticeable.

In any case, wouldn't any slight changes in grading be jarringly obvious in this scenario?

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Christopher Seo
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 530
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: Jun 99

posted 04-27-2004 10:54 AM

I've seen some films where the reel changes usually occurred mid-scene... which is very helpful if you're trying to determine reel order.

Then I've seen a few ("Sixth Sense" comes to mind) where the reel changes seem deliberately placed right after a scene change, i.e., after the establishing shot of the new location.

It all seems to be preference of the editor... who perhaps thought the cue marks would be less noticeable if placed in the middle of some action.

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Brian Guckian
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 594
From: Dublin, Ireland
Registered: Apr 2003

posted 04-30-2004 05:21 PM

Thanks for the info Christopher ... I stand corrected!

I wonder why this happens though - if it's to do with Cue Marks then surely that's a bad reason.

Perhaps it's also to do with Non Linear Editing (NLE) systems - such as AVID, Lightworks or Final Cut Pro - where the action can be watched continuously without reel breaks. In the past, using a Moviola or a Kem flatbed film editing machine (or a Steenbeck in Europe), you could only watch 10 or 20 mins at a time since you were working with a film cutting copy instead of digital images, hence there may have been more awareness of reel changes, and the need to place these between scenes rather than within them.

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