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This topic comprises 3 pages: 1 2 3
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Author
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Topic: DTS and 16mm exhibition
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Alain LeTourneau
Film Handler
Posts: 37
From: Portland, OR
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted 07-12-2004 06:11 PM
In response to Steve Krause:
As you (and John Pytlak) point out 16mm origination has increased. I'm almost certain that this is in reference to color negative and the new Vision2 family of filmstocks only.
What about....
B/W negative and reversal (7231, 7222, 7265, 7266)? Or color reversal (now down to 7285 and 7270)?
I would guess that sales of the above camera stocks are dropping?
As for print stocks, John Pytlak does mention that sales volumes are dropping.
B/W and color negative print stocks are one thing, but...
7399 - the last color MP is now gone
7361 - the last B/W MP is on FTO and may soon follow the path of 7399.
As an aside, I have to respond as a filmmaker if I can take this space to do this on a "projectionist" list, and since there is a continum - I both shoot and project films.
What is at stake here is the head end production and post-production processes. The traditional ways of working with film are being placed under erasure. I lament the loss of film handling in post if the option to print no longer exists.
It seems now that all working methods must be reduced to the screen I'm staring at now, and this I feel is rather unfortunate. One tool for everything! Data entry, email, spreadsheets, word processing, audio and video editing, accounting, etc., etc.
As soon as the old guard dies off at the film schools across the world the sweeping changes will become complete and a new breed of imaging experts will reign.
And with this new technology comes the throw-away mentality that rules in this market. Ah, that machine is 2 years old and this program isn't back compatible and so and on and so forth.
I heard once that there has been something like 75 video formats since 1956. Well, even if this number is off I would guess it's easily reach 30.
I shoot with cameras made in the 1960s and 1970s.
I have 2 Steenbecks (one from 1976 and another from 1978) and both run exceptionally well since they've been well taken care of. Since 1996 I've had 6 computers and I'm usually 3-4 years behind the (consumer) technology wave.
Maybe I should have been born in 1963, instead of 1973.
Thanks for the lively discussion, and all comments on DTS and 16mm. I've learned a good deal here.
Alain
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Scott Norwood
Film God
Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 07-12-2004 06:24 PM
Color reversal will go away within a year, though the processing chemistry will be around for another six months. There's a letter about this on the Kodak web site. Personally, I don't see much reason to be upset about this, considering that the color reversal stocks haven't really improved at all since the late 1970s, while the technology for color negative has improved tremendously over the last 20+ years. Fuji killed reversal years ago, although Kodak probably kept it for NFL Films, which shot reversal until the mid '90s (does anyone know why?), and some military and NASA facilities which used (use?) it.
B&W reversal is now made in the new B&W facility (John P. can give more detail, I'm sure). Supposedly it looks the same as or similiar to the old Plus-X reversal and Tri-X reversal. I haven't seen it.
No idea on B&W negative, but I'm sure that it will remain available.
I wouldn't be too worried about 16mm, as long as color and B&W negative remain available, as well as intermediate stocks, sound recording film, and print stock. I can't imagine that any of these would go away anytime soon. There are too many Bolexes/CP-16s and classroom projectors that are readily available relatively inexpensively to people who want to experiment with film.
Even if Kodak were to kill 16mm, I'm sure that there would be third parties which could slit and reperforate 35mm or 65mm stock for 16mm use, just as is done now for double-8 and double-super-8 (both of which are long dead formats which weren't anywhere near as popular as 16mm when they were new). Heck, people are still shooting 9.5mm. I can't imagine why, but it's good to know that the film and lab service are still available (at least in a limited way).
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John Pytlak
Film God
Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 07-13-2004 05:40 AM
Kodak has a variety of films available in Super-8, including two of the new Kodak VISION2 Color Negative Films, 7218 (500T), and 7217 (200T). Most transfer the images to video or HD video. Very popular for music videos:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/super8/film.jhtml?id=0.1.4.4.10.4.4&lc=en
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/super8/index.jhtml?id=0.1.4.4.10&lc=en
quote:
From its beginnings as the home movie medium of the 60's, Super 8 film is alive and well and making it possible for virtually anyone to bring the unmistakable "look and feel" of real film to the screen.
As students of the art, many of today's professional filmmakers created their first films with Super 8. Thirty years later, this small-gauge medium still provides an easy, inexpensive way for students and enthusiasts to work at film resolutions and color depths that still are unmatched by the latest video technologies. Not surprisingly, the magic of Super 8 has even found its way into some of today's hottest music "videos."
Whether you're a devotee of the format, or just a little curious, visit our pages and find out all there is to know about Super 8.
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Leo Enticknap
Film God
Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 07-13-2004 06:30 AM
quote: Scott Norwood
Heck, people are still shooting 9.5mm. I can't imagine why, but it's good to know that the film and lab service are still available (at least in a limited way).
Yes, and they're throwing us archivists a lifeline by still doing so. We don't make preservation dupes on 9.5 anymore. We get optical blowups to 16 done when necessary for preservation, and a Rank transfer done if the original element is in good shape and we just need access copies without the need for theatrical presentation. But these enthusiasts are continuing to provide a supply of spacing, cores, splicers, rewinders and all the things we need to carry out routine conservation on 9.5mm elements.
quote: Alain LeTourneau
What is at stake here is the head end production and post-production processes. The traditional ways of working with film are being placed under erasure. I lament the loss of film handling in post if the option to print no longer exists.
My guess is that the option to print will exist for many years to come, but that for theatrical presentation of 16mm originals, blowing up to 35mm will increasingly become the norm. Lab prices for this have been inching down in recent years, and I hope they keep going down. OK, on a smaller screen a contact printed 16 shown on a high-end and well maintained projcetor might just have the edge. But a well struck 35mm blowup will certainly look better in a larger auditorium, the print will be less vulnerable to dirt and scratching, you can put a better soundtrack on it with existing mainstream technology and the equipment in the theatre is likely to be in better shape. In a few years time and if 16mm is still alive and well as an origination medium, I expect we'll be seeing high definition TV or electronic (of some description) plus 35mm as the two principle ways of showing it.
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Stephen Furley
Film God
Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002
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posted 07-14-2004 01:36 AM
John, the 9.5mm material still being produced in France isn't even a motion picture stock. Somebody over there buys Fuji slide film in unperforated rolls, they then perforate it in that width as triple 9.5 on an old Pathescope perforator, slit it, and sell it in 500 foot rolls. Velvia, Provia and RTP II are all available, though I have heard that the tungsten stock is being dropped.
There is somebody who imports the film into England, and sells it in various forms. 9.5mm cameras never had a standardised loading system, There were 'P' and 'S' thpe chargers, which were quite similar to the Fuji Single-8 cartridge, a few cameras, such as the Pathe Baby, and the Midas, (a combiined camera and projector) took their own design of chargers. These all took about 30 feet of film. The Pathe Webo A took a 50 foot magazine, which also contained the intermittant movement, and there were several camaras which took 50 foot or 100 foot spools. All of these chargers, magazines are made of metal, and re-usable, and re-loads are available for all of them. Empty ones are quite easy to obtain. It is also possible to buy 500 feet on a core, and cut it to whatever length you require. The cores seem to be standard 2 iinch 16mm ones, which have been turned down on a lathe. The stock is E6 process, and processing is available in both England and France. I doubt if the total production is more than a few tens of 500 foot rolls per year, it may not even be that much, and certainly nobody is making lots of money out of it, but it's still practical, even on this scale. I see no reason why something similar shouldn't be done with 16mm at some time in the future. Yet again, it's easy to improvise with something simple like film.
Somebody else was producing black and white reversal film, which I believe was made by reporforating and slitting 16mm material. I'm not sure if this is still available. A number of perforators for various formats exist in priivate hands. No, I don't have one at home, but there are people who do.
Super-8, and for that matter Fuji Single-8, is more of a problem, due to the non-reuseable cartridges which these formats use. A re-useable cartridge has been proposed in the past, but the cost of tooling up to produce one, in the small quantities fequired, would be very high.
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John Pytlak
Film God
Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 07-14-2004 12:39 PM
Typically, Kodak motion picture film is slit to the final width directly from the "wide rolls", which are about 54 inches wide. Each wide roll yields 83 16mm strips, or 38 35mm strips, or 20 65mm strips, or 19 70mm strips. Sales volume and customer need are the primary determinants of which film formats are stocked.
"Legacy Formats" are served by companies specializing in finishing and packaging film for these niche applications.
Here are the current format specifications available from Kodak:
http://www.kodak.com/US/plugins/acrobat/en/motion/catalog/desc.pdf
quote:
Table of Descriptions of Specification Numbers for Kodak Motion Picture Films
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/h1/sizesP.shtml#p
quote:
Motion picture film emulsions are coated on a 54-inch-wide continuous web of film base. These 54-inch rolls constitute the master stock rolls that are slit into strips during the finishing process. Each master roll is assigned a number; each strip also has a reference number (see Figure 39). After slitting, the strips are perforated and cut to the designated lengths. KODAK Motion Picture Camera Films are then wound onto cores or spools, the outer ends secured, and depending on format, some are put into black plastic bags. Then they are packaged into cans or plastic boxes (16 mm only), and sealed. The bags ensure that the film fits snugly into the container, as well as further protecting the film from light. Some 35 mm KODAK color print film is packaged in compression boxes with individual strips up to 6000 feet long. Each roll of film in compression boxes is in an airtight vacuum bag.
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