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Author Topic: Changovers: Tips and Tricks Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 07-14-2004 05:45 AM                        Yes, that diagram seems to assume that each reel is fed from a base out orientation and taken up emulsion out. The argument as to whether reels should be run base or emulsion out for projection has been thrashed to death on other threads, but unless there's a specific factor with this projector or booth that I'm not taking into account, this seems to me an unncecessary complication which increases the possibility of a mis-thread. Maybe the convention is different in the US, but every single projector I've used here takes up emulsion out, i.e. the spool rotates clockwise (unless the print is a DIN print of course, but I hardly ever got any of those apart from the odd European nitrate print from the '30s). So, assuming that the projectionist doesn't reverse the orientation in rewinding, it would be necessary either to twist the film as it comes off the feed spool (which should only be a measure of very last resort, for obvious reasons), or to reverse it on the bench through two winds. Sooner or later I'd guess that someone is going to forget to do that (especially if there are lots of projectionists who might go a week or two without running any films), with the obvious consequence. The risk would be even greater if you ever show a full-gate silent print...  |  IP: Logged Kenneth Wuepper Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1026 From: Saginaw, MI, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 07-14-2004 06:38 AM                     John, Your diagram reflects the reel rotation and film orientation of every US 35mm projector I have ever seen. The feed spool rotates counter-clockwise (anti-clock) while the takeup rotates clockwise. A reel of film that is returned to the film safe without rewinding will have the soundtrack on the wrong side if you try to thread it without rewinding first. Does your full sized diagram of this threading path include the frame count for both the upper and lower loops? I place labels on the machine which give the frame count for lip sync so operators will not use the "finger width" technique. Very nice graphic you have created! KEN  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 07-14-2004 07:43 AM                     In Europe, most places feed clockwise, I'd say about 80-90% do it that way, Though I have seen a picture of 70mm feeding anti-clockwise at the Empire Leicester Square, and the chief of one London cinema suddenly started feeding anti-clockwise a couple of years ago, having been feeding clockwise for over forty years. Most projectors will quite happily feed either way, though I have seen a few old ones where the fire traps were designed i such a way that the film could be scratched if fed clockwise. Take up is normally clockwise on 35mm, and right-handed 16mm, machines; i.e. the film takes up the same way that it feeds. With 35mm it seems to be clockwise reed in Europe, and anti-clockwise in the USA. Strangely, with the smaller guages the American (Kodak) designed ones, 16mm and 8mm, feed clockwise, while the European (Pathe) designed ones, 9.5mm and 17.5mm, normally feed anti-clockwise, and take up the same way. Again, I don't know why. I can't remember which way 28mm feeds, I've got a feeling that it's clockwise, but the machine is designed quite differently to those for any other gauge. [ 07-14-2004, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: Stephen Furley ]  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 07-14-2004 08:22 AM                    Taking up emulstion-in. What's wrong with that?  |  IP: Logged Bernard Tonks Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 619 From: Cranleigh, Surrey, England Registered: Apr 2001 posted 07-14-2004 09:16 AM                     Until the 1950s a good half of UK cinemas were equipped with Simplex projectors, feeding the film emulsion out anti-clockwise. Personally I preferred it this way, as you did not have to turn the film over when making a splice, we used to carefully rough the base side with a bit of fine emery paper. The infamous although liked by some BTH SUPA (single unit projection assembly) projector, both feed and take-up was anti clockwise. Back to the subject on changeovers. Before I installed a Westrex double-sided tower system when I was on 6000 foot spools, I used to get a great kick by watching the changeover being done by automation. Sometimes there were two changeovers with a supporting or double feature programme. My first encounter with automatic changeovers was during the 1960s with Projectomatic on 2000 reels. When I did a couple of days relief work at the old Rex (ABC) Hanworth in Middlesex, installed was a pair of old Ross projectors with Western Electric universal bases. The projector would have just about have ramped up on the actually changeover, I think the lace up in the gate was on leader ‘3’ but could have been on ‘4’ maybe. Also something different in this cinema, was that the council would not allow the word EXIT displayed. WAY OUT was the only wording permitted.  |  IP: Logged John Hawkinson Film God Posts: 2273 From: Cambridge, MA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 07-14-2004 11:55 AM                     Readers should be aware that Phil is jokingly referring to Brad's emulsion-out takeup modification. Leo says, "very single projector I've used here takes up emulsion out, i.e. the spool rotates clockwise." You have that backwards, right? Clockwise takeup rotation yields emulsion-in. Ken: No, it does not include frame counts for loops. No one here uses the "finger width" technique, all have been taught threading properly. And on Centuries, the top loop size is easily found by moving the the pad roller left (and the sound loop is easily checked against diamonds, etc.). In many ways the threading diagram is a nice-looking afterthought. (I'm surprised no one complained about the film path running through the casting, rather than the slit. Ah well.) When Stephen says "feeding clockwise," I assume you mean "the supply reel rotates clockwise" (rather than the takeup)? I'm 90% sure that's what you mean... --jhawk  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 07-14-2004 12:59 PM                     Yes, for 35mm feed spool rotates clockwise in most cases, take-up almost always rotates clockwise, I've seen a couple of towers that turn the other way. Film is usually emulsion in on both spools. For 16mm right-handed machines the feed spool almost always rotates clockwise, the take-up usually does likewise, but there are some machines which take up the other way, anti-clockwise. You have to be careful about emulsiion position with 16mm, The standard for 16mm prints is for the film base to face the lamp, the opposite to 35 and 70mm, but the same as a 16mm reversal camera original. A clockwise rotating feed spool wiill therefore be emulsion out. Some 16mm priints however have the emulsion facing the lamp, and these would be emulsion in. To further complicate things, left-handed 16mm machines are not uncommon, and on these the spools will be seen to rotate in the opposiite direction, when viewed from the operating side. I think that's a fairly complete answer, but to put it more simply, on most 35mm and 16mm projectors over here the film comes down from the front of the feed spool.  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 07-14-2004 01:23 PM                        quote: John Hawkinson Leo says, "very single projector I've used here takes up emulsion out, i.e. the spool rotates clockwise." You have that backwards, right? Clockwise takeup rotation yields emulsion-in. Yes, sorry, typo. From Ken's explanation I can now see the rationale for taking up in the other orientation from feeding, namely that it might reduce the chances of accidentally lacing up a reel which is tail out, by reference to the soundtrack position. It's still not something I ever did, probably because I've always rewound a reel as soon as it was run, i.e. I never stored them tail out.  |  IP: Logged Phil Hill I love my cootie bug Posts: 7595 From: Hollywood, CA USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 07-14-2004 01:31 PM                  quote: John Hawkinson Readers should be aware that Phil is jokingly referring to Brad's emulsion-out takeup modification. YUP! >>> Phil  |  IP: Logged Robert DeLoss Marken Film Handler Posts: 11 From: stockbridge, ga, usa Registered: May 2004 posted 07-14-2004 02:20 PM                     Andrew - Hi! I have a tip that was not mentioned - but I did not read all the replies completely. This is not important when running color but a must with B/W. Between the motor cue and the changeover cue, check and adjust the carbons to the correct position. If the positive is not exactly positioned correct, the picture will have a different color when changed. Poor presentation. I always did this even when running color. Bob Marken  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 07-14-2004 02:23 PM                     Leo wrote: quote: Leo Enticknap I've always rewound a reel as soon as it was run, i.e. I never stored them tail out. I normally do the same, and then return it to the rack with the film coming off the front of the reel, and the label clearly visible. If for some reason I have to return a reel to the rack without rewinding it, I put it in the other way, with the fiilm coming off the back, and the label not visble. A reel of film without a label sticks out like a sore thumb, as a constant reminder that it still needs to be rewound.  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 07-14-2004 02:23 PM                     Deleted due to duplicate post.  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 07-14-2004 02:46 PM                        What is the consensus on how to store reels in a Neumade cabinet? Is it better to leave 1-2 feet of leader hanging out of the front (like most people including myself seem to do), or is it preferable to leave the entire leader inside the cabinet with the reel? I would guess that the latter would be preferred with nitrate, but I personally prefer the former method (having never run nitrate), as it makes it obvious that the correct film is in the reel cabinet and that the reels are oriented properly.  |  IP: Logged John Hawkinson Film God Posts: 2273 From: Cambridge, MA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 07-14-2004 03:02 PM                     Scott, I believe the generic term is "reel magazine." We certainly leave them hanging out, labels visible (lab label too if it will reach w/o hitting the floor). The whole winding/storage situation is complicated by RP39 issues. On rare occasions I've wound the supply reel emulsion-in and either mounted it in the clockwise orientation (reel alarms fail) or counterclockwise as usual, with a halftwist (not a good idea for brittle acetate, which is where RP39 is most relevant)... --jhawk  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 07-14-2004 03:23 PM                     No, I don't wish to dredge up the argument again, but it really all boils down to either "it's how we've always done it, so it must be the best way" or the equipment has some specific hindrance prohibiting reels to spin a certain way. I run emulsion out exclusively. Europe tends to run everything emulsion in exclusively and US tends to do the half and half thing, feeding emulsion out and taking up emulsion in. SMPTE's paper on this was published decades ago before modern film stocks and as far as I am concerned it is outdated and holds no value. I have zero focus drift, curling or warping issues when I keep prints exclusively emulsion out, and I also find it interesting that 99% of the labs wind their reels emulsion out too. Heck, even the TES screening room has the takeup belt twisted to maintain emulsion out. Older prints that have been wound emulsion in for periods of time always and without fail have warping and focus issues. Facts are facts.  |  IP: Logged

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