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Author Topic: When to strike the Xenon in the morning Michael Schaffer "Where is the Boardwalk Hotel?" Posts: 4143 From: Boston, MA Registered: Apr 2002 posted 08-23-2004 11:57 PM                        Our Kinoton lamphouses for the Barco DP50 are struck once 10 minutes or so before the first show, then left on for the rest of the day. However, these lamphouses have an ectra lamphouse douser. Which they need in any case since the DP50 does not have a mechanical douser.  |  IP: Logged Jack Ondracek Film God Posts: 2348 From: Port Orchard, WA, USA Registered: Oct 2002 posted 08-24-2004 01:40 AM                        I still use electric dousers, but Brad's description of his system is interesting. I do not turn my lamps off during my business day. One time on, one time off... all manual. I turn my lamps on about 5 minutes before showtime, though I remember some early posts, where Steve Kraus notes that it can take quite a bit longer for color temperature to settle in. Rather than working power to the lamp, my automation lamp terminals are connected to a motor on the hand douser for any emergency that might shut a show down... and at intermissions and the end of the night.  |  IP: Logged Jeremy Fuentes Mmmm, Dr. Pepper! Posts: 1168 From: Corpus Christi, TX United States Registered: Jan 2004 posted 08-24-2004 05:56 AM                     quote: Bill Langfield Jeremy, Can you please EXPLAIN your POINT or what you don't understand? I didnt understand the logic of having a bulb running all day wasting electricity and possibly causing damage to the dowser and using up bulb life. But then you edited your post to 10 to 15 minutes rather than 30, and I can see that it would make sense to give the bulb time to adjust. I guess by running the bulb all day long, and knowing exactly how long it will be on all day, you could calculate the exact day that it should be changed, or does that not make sense? [ 08-24-2004, 07:11 AM: Message edited by: Jeremy Fuentes ]  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 08-24-2004 07:00 AM                        10 minutes before showtime was my rule of thumb, assuming the presence of an electrically operated changeover shutter and a hand-operated douser on the lamphouse. The main reason for this was to prevent focus drift during the first few minutes of the show caused by expanding metal as the lamphouse and projector came up to temperature, but also to allow time to do something if the lamp failed to ignite. In the last place I worked the automation would fire the lamp on motor start. If I was able to be there at the show start I'd override the automation and light up a few minutes earlier (with the douser closed, of course); if not I'd let the lamp strike on automation and get to the relevant booth a few minutes later to check the focus.  |  IP: Logged Dick Vaughan Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1032 From: Bradford, West Yorkshire, UK Registered: Jul 2000 posted 08-24-2004 07:33 AM                        On our IMAX SR's I strike the lamps at least 15 minutes prior to the first show ie they come on when the show is initiated on the console. Watching the readouts on the console the usual initial value is about 175Amps which over 5-10 minutes stabilises down to the 160Amp rated operating level.And yes they then stay on throughout the day.  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 08-24-2004 07:36 AM                     The silly thing about the Kinotons I was running recently, was that there was no way to override it. There were no lamphouse dousers, there was a manual strike button, but it wouldn't work if the motor wasn't running, I did try it as, with low Wattage lamps I thought a few extra seconds of heat on the changeover shutters wouldn't hurt, but you just can't do it. If you need to run the motor without striking the lamp then you have to shut off the supply to the rectifier. There's no way at all to stop the motor, even if you just need to do it for a minute or so, without putting the lamp out, and having to re-strike it. One day I needed to run the motor for some reason, so I had to switch off the rectifier, and then, you can guess, I forgot to switch it back on. Started the motor for the adverts, lamp didn't strike, by the time I realised what had happened and got the lamp alight, it was only a couple of seconds before the picture was on screen. Strike on motor start is hopeless with changeovers, the difference in light at the moment of changeover is obvoius. This is a recently-built place, less than ten years old, and this is the only bit of automation in it. Getting rid of it would be one of the biggest imrovements they could make to the presentation. This, the stupidly positioned controls, and the sluggish changeovers are about the only things I don't like about the Kinotons; otherwise, they're nice machines. Philips/Kinoton have long been very keen on long run systems and automation but don't seem to take account of people who do changeovers, or need to run just a few minutes of film at a time, or anything else that they seem to think is unusual. I assume that the studio machines are different, but I've never used them.  |  IP: Logged Peter John Anthony. C Film Handler Posts: 55 From: India Registered: Jun 2004 posted 08-24-2004 10:15 AM                     I normally with a new lamp turn on 10 min before our 1st show and for lamp that has crossed above 900hrs turn on 30 min before our 1st show just incase if they fail to turn on we have enough time for the replacement.  |  IP: Logged Frank Angel Film God Posts: 5305 From: Brooklyn NY USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 08-24-2004 11:55 AM                        quote: John Pytlak At least a few minutes would allow better stabilization of the arc, and a bit of "breathing time" to remedy things if the lamp does not ignite. Hmmm, what does this say about the reliability of xenons? I mean, if a xenon has been installed and has been running for days, weeks, months, do we still have a legitimate reason to worried that somehow they could magically not strike in the morning? Or is this just lingering paranoia from the early days when they would explode if you looked at them wrong? We don't have to worry that the projector motor won't start when we throw the switch, right? Or the amps won't go on when we power up the rack. Then on the other hand, funny that you never heard anyone ever fret that their carbon arc wouldn't strike in the morning....heh heh. Frank I have seen the light.....and it's carbon arc!  |  IP: Logged Andrew Jefferson Film Handler Posts: 23 From: Brisbane, QLD, Australia Registered: Jul 2004 posted 08-24-2004 05:22 PM                     We strike our Xenons 20mins before the first show, then they stay on all day (13hrs typical) BUT that's not 13hrs on full load, the automation backs the amps down from 140 down to about 50 amps in-between shows. When the lamphouse is on standby the hour meter doesnt count that time, only on full load. We leave our douser open all day too, the zipper in the Cinemeccanica can handle 50amps ALL DAY and the lamphouse douser can handle 140amps ALL DAY. When the proj is about to start on the last slide, the automation brings the lamp onto full current, then once the leader goes through the zipper opens on the first trailer. I have had all sorts of problems with Xenons striking properly in the morning. Once I had to replace an Ignition unit in a Xebex Super, which i did in the last 29mins before the show, and i also had a bulb that just wouldn't strike, also fixed in the last 29mins. If I had an automation system that was stiking my bulbs, id get rid of it, unless it could tell that the lamp wasn't struck and try again, or replace the bulb... The 30min stiking rule seems EXTREMELY logical to me, but i guess if there's been some of you that have been letting your automation do it with no probs for years now, then so be it...  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 08-24-2004 05:32 PM                     The CA21 can be configured to restrike or sound an alarm should the lamp fail. If you go so far as to buy the Neumade interface, you can even have it announce the problem over your radio.  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-24-2004 06:51 PM                        Frank--I've never had an arc lamp fail to strike, but I have had a feed motor that refused to feed. Thankfully, I tried striking the arc about 20 minutes before the first show (on both machines!) and had time to swap feed assemblies (easy to do with Enarcs). With xenons and manual booths, I do what John P. suggests, with the exception that I will strike the lamp(s) earlier if I am in an unfamiliar booth and/or for important shows. In automated booths, I normally do whatever the automation is set up to do (usually strike lamp at motor start), except I'll strike the lamp early for super-important shows where I will be next to the machine (to open the hand douser) at show start. Agreed with Stephen that the Kinoton method of powering the lamp with the motor switch is truly silly and impractical in a changeover house.  |  IP: Logged Per Hauberg Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 883 From: Malling, Denmark Registered: Jul 2000 posted 08-24-2004 07:29 PM                        Checking in good time before day's first show is fine, but otherwise, a minute to warm up and burn steady should be more more than enough. The Bulbs and the currant is expensive enough without letting the light on all day. Locally, in my screen #1, I've always had trouble with the projector closest to the sound rack. Cinemec CX900 shoebox lamp makes too much noise by ignition, and seems to damage something in DA20 now and then. Therefore we never turn on Xenon with SRD on. In screen two I've now been running a little over a year with my first Kinoton lamphouse and FP30D, which I was told as well by Herr Mueller of Kinoton as by Michael Schaffer here, I had to get used to after more than thirty years DP70 and partly Vic 9. One thing, I'll never get used to, and which disapponts me greatly, is that Kinoton delivers a lamphouse/projector without a manual dowser - ecspecially when the change-over dowser is unable to cover decently, resulting in showing the countdown with a bit of light - just watchable - but showing. To go against this not existing dowser, the lamp simply can't burn, if projector is not running. -That is, -if You want to make a break between preview and feature, off goes the lamp, to be ignited 20 sec's later, or if the shows are running more or less continously, still this turnoff/turnon every moment. That can not be good for the lamp. Otherwise, I certainly got used to the FP30 - and it's brillant picture quality - It will not be matched by any for another decade ! p.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 08-24-2004 08:11 PM                     Hey all you Kinoton users out there....the complaints you site are that of your installers and of those who order the equipment!!!! Kinoton lamphouses may be ordered with manual or electric dousers and all of the ones I sell have em! As to when the lamp strikes...again this is an installer issue. All of mine can strike or be turned off via a toggle switch and those with automations can also follow the motor, the "standard" way for Kinoton. This is not rocket science. Kinoton America has a simple mod listed Here as KA #99-8. A competent tech and 5-minutes or so will have this "fix" complete. Note, for platter venues, the "factory" prewire suffices for most. As to the douser it should completely block the aperture...the current douser can be adjusted as to how far it closes and to minimize bounce. Steve  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-24-2004 09:54 PM                     The Xebex system is designed to be left lit in standbye mode for long periods Normally with vic 8's and xebex I wire the automation to leave the lamp lit on standbye and the dowser autoclose  |  IP: Logged Jack Ondracek Film God Posts: 2348 From: Port Orchard, WA, USA Registered: Oct 2002 posted 08-24-2004 10:08 PM                        OK... here's a question for you techs out there. (disclaimer) I'm not interested in opinions regarding the wisdom of digging into the machinery. I am qualified to do so... it's all mine, and I accept the risk of my actions. (/disclaimer) I have Strong switchers on all of my larger lamps (4kW and higher). Accordingly, the current on these supplies is adjusted with 10k pots. Is there any particular reason that one couldn't insert a relay into the motor circuit... or the automation lamp contacts... that could be used to change the resistance of the control circuit (fixed resistor... another pot, whatever), so that the bulb would run at a reduced current during idle times? Any particular reason why the bulb would object? I suppose some kind of accomodation for relay failure might be in order, but otherwise, why not? During down times between shows, the bulb would still be on, but would not be blasting everything in front of it... and additional ignitions would be minimized. (edit)... I just saw Andrew and Frank's posts... I guess I'm asking about doing something like what Andrew has... except with my switchers.  |  IP: Logged

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