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Author Topic: Looking for an Automation Darren Briggs Master Film Handler Posts: 371 From: York, UK Registered: Dec 2001 posted 01-15-2005 07:17 PM                        Once set up the TA-10's work fine, no problems and can be used to do very complex shows if your bright enough. The pre-wiring isn't hard to work out for what you need the unit to do, and only takes 5 mins to do. As an event bsed automation it works well, and have very little problems with the 20 odd ones I look after, and the main benifit is that you need very few cues added to your print. Lacing to a count down head leader is what all good projectionists should do to ensure you check your pic/sound sync lacing. So having the film at 8 in the gate to start a TA-10 is not a issue at all. So many people dont realise the importance of this and the loop sizes, also do you ever check when making up fils if the reels have been rpinted in sync correctly? Darren The FM-35/37 is the most used sensor I have seen in the UK and work well. If your projectionist can put the cue on the right side of the film. Yes you need to clean them, but don't you clean the projector, the cue detector is part of the projector film path!? For a sequence (very cue heavy) automation system the CA21 is very good and works a treat, not got any problems with that at all. Have some working with FM35's actually!  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 01-15-2005 09:12 PM                     quote: Darren Briggs Lacing to a count down head leader is what all good projectionists should do to ensure you check your pic/sound sync lacing. So having the film at 8 in the gate to start a TA-10 is not a issue at all. Your definition of a good projectionist is pretty screwy. Lacing with "8 in the gate" is actually what BAD projectionists do. It means you are handling the film very near to the first part that is going to be projected to your audience. GOOD projectionists thread far ahead of that on the leader, and either motor it down (using the motor switch only one time) or preferably the automation does it for them. Lacing with "8 in the gate" gives no guarantee that the loop sizes are correct either. I don't know who's butt you pulled that one out of, but it stinks.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-15-2005 09:46 PM                     quote: Darren Briggs Once set up the TA-10's work fine, no problems and can be used to do very complex shows if your bright enough. The pre-wiring isn't hard to work out for what you need the unit to do, and only takes 5 mins to do. Why do inside a unit when you can do it on the front panel. I always describe the TA-10 to customers as flexible inflexibility. What ever automation scheme you come up with is pretty much wired in permanent.... fine only for strip mall theatres. We had alot of failures of FM-35's in southern Utah, finally found that even though they have a rated wide input voltage range of 12 to 28 volts that the internal regulator does not really like the higher end of that DC voltage range. Adding an in line 16 volt regulator to feed the existing built in wimpy one seems to have solved the problem. Mark @ CLACO  |  IP: Logged Ken McFall Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 615 From: Haringey, London. Registered: Apr 2001 posted 01-16-2005 01:16 AM                     The TA10 can be quite easily used with a show start cue if required. It's the same principle as running on interlock but using one machine. Place your 'Interval' cue approx 13' from where you want the shutter to open (you need to experiment with the exact placing). Then with your long lacing leader, with cue, you can stop as far back as you like. When you start the show press the interlock button first followed by the start button. The projector will start, with motor only, then the xenon will strike at the cue followed seven seconds later with the show going on screen. I used this method all the time as we had a long 60' leader before the start of the feature so we could stop easily if needed at the request of the manager. This of course required that you did not have other projectors on the same 'Interlock zone'. In my case we had four screens so it was not a problem, one on each zone. Screen one on Zone one, Screen 2 on Zone two etc etc. When we did run interlock we just set the interlock zones accordingly as required. How do you check sync when making up a print on the bench?  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 01-16-2005 02:15 AM                     quote: Darren Briggs So having the film at 8 He's an good ol' fashioned changeover, 2k reel operator. For we used to put the "8" in the aperture plate so when the second cue hit, the first couple of frames would be in the second's machine aperture when we hit the dowser/sound changover switches-either foot dowser and lever changover (the Motiograph style) or the wall buttons (the Simplex style). Those earlier movies, back about 40 plus years ago, when dialog was right during a reel change, the changeovers were taught this way, or the dialog was skipped a bit. "Old school" projection - a dying art. If you're gonna check your proper loop size, especially lower loops size, put the frame with the word "picture start" in the aperture box, then lace down to where you can have the line where the words "sound start" be directly across the optical reader. This is your standard 21 frame sound delay for sound sync to picture. Course, this is speaker pict to sound sync setup. And as others have mentioned with longer auditoriums is to lengthen that distance to 22 frames, for sound travels slower than light. -Monte  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 01-16-2005 04:00 AM                     quote: Monte L Fullmer He's an good ol' fashioned changeover, 2k reel operator. Sorry Monte, but you're wrong. Anyone threading like that is a bad ol' fashioned changeover, 2k reel operator. All of the good ones add extra head and tail leader whether running on 2k or large reels and motor down to the the precise start frame needed for a perfect changeover given the ramp-up speed of the incoming projector and operator reaction time, not necessarily "8 in the gate". That's old geezer/"I'm just doin' it the way I wus taught" school stuff. Ken - nice tip on the TA10. I was trying to do exactly that with the CNA150s from Strong, but we found that shows liked to randomly stop when we ran like that. Good to know it will work reliably with the TA10s.  |  IP: Logged Carl Martin Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1424 From: Oakland, CA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 01-16-2005 04:01 AM                        monte, make that 20 frames, not 22. ken, we only just started using that "interlock" method on our ta-10's about a week ago. 13' is exactly the figure that works for our centurys and fm-35(7)'s. just have to start the film rolling a minute before actual showtime now. carl  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-16-2005 10:00 AM                     "Sorry Monte, but you're wrong. Anyone threading like that is a bad ol' fashioned changeover, 2k reel operator. All of the good ones add extra head and tail leader whether running on 2k or large reels and motor down to the the precise start frame needed for a perfect changeover " I don't approve of using the motor to jog up and down Extra leader is a good idea but I insist on operators threading with Pix start in the gate then inching down to there required start distance  |  IP: Logged Matt Hollis Film Handler Posts: 49 From: Paragould / Jonesboro, AR, USA Registered: Jan 2005 posted 01-16-2005 12:54 PM                        Alright, thanks guys. The 3Q and TA-10 seem to be pretty good. Since I need 4 cues though I'm gonna need a QX-10 too, right? The FM-35 is a good detector btw.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 01-16-2005 04:52 PM                     Extra leader does no good if you are threading on the PIC START Gordon. It's too close to the first projected frame on the roll. Presentation suffers from handling that close.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-16-2005 07:25 PM                     "Extra leader does no good if you are threading on the PIC START Gordon. It's too close to the first projected frame on the roll. Presentation suffers from handling that close"That has not been my experience at all The extra leader will prevent cinching and since the film never touchs the floor then nodirt is an issue  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 01-16-2005 07:43 PM                     I'll agree extra leader, even if you thread ON the countdown (or PIC START) will help with creasing and cinching, but that's mostly due to the seam in regular reels and isn't an issue with clip-together core-based reels. Still though, handling is handling. Every platter theater that has just enough leader and an 8 second start suffers from excessive dirt on the first 30 seconds of their show. Likewise, every changeover house I have ever seen that does not add extra leader and thread up then motor down to the start frame also suffers this. Yes running film cleaners on every show can seriously slow this effect down, but sooner or later little tiny marks and specs of dirt DO show up when the film is being handled a mere 10 feet or so from the first thing to hit the screen. This damage is quite obvious at places that don't run film cleaners, or only run them "when the film needs it". I have ran prints back before I knew better with only the lab leaders reel to reel, and indeed after several showings the dirt buildup started to appear...and no the leader never touched the floor, I was just threading about a foot ahead of where the film needed to be cued for a proper changeover, then jogging the motor by hand to the exact frame. Adding extra tail leader solves the end of reel problem, but extra head leader makes no difference if you are still threading ON the countdown area. If the big complaint is that the extra leader is too expensive, use extra trailers. If then the big complaint is that there are no frameline markings on trailers in darker shots, then email me and I will sell you some mega-cheap recycled leader with frameline markings on it that I make in-house here. I can run off clear, white, blue, red, green or fullcoat. (In fact my theaters use it as interlock as well as regular threading leader. That generic blue stuff is way too overpriced!)  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 01-16-2005 10:29 PM                     I use extra leader and motor down...surprisingly, I haven't blown through motors.....I don't bang the projector with full-starts/full-stops/full-starts....etc. The result, no dirt and no human hands mucking with the leader. Also, it helps if one does misthread...all they've ruined is scrap leader that is easily replaced (we recyle old trailers into scrap leader and scrap tails). The last foot or so is inched into place by hand on the motor (or the inchng knob, if so equipped, depending on projector). Steve  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 01-16-2005 10:38 PM                     quote: Steve Guttag I use extra leader and motor down ..interesting, and I was taught not to motor down leaders..hard on starter contacts in the motors. Always hand spin the motor's flywheel a few frames for thread check. Oh well...and never was shown to add junk film to the beginnings of leaders... I knew that I would have that backwards...20 instead of 22 frames advance for long auditoriums. Live and learn sometimes..that's why we have these discussions.. -Monte  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 01-16-2005 10:42 PM                     Note the difference Monte...by motor down, I mean the motor comes up to speed...not "bump the motor" as the old-timers used to. In effect, you fire the motor one extra time. "Bumping" the motor effectively has it stay on its start windings is indeed a bad practice. Then again many of these motors are now 3-phase with inverters so some of the old common wisdom is changing. Steve  |  IP: Logged

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