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Topic: The 5th Great Big 70mm Festival

Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 02-10-2005 10:48 PM

Does he go by a middle initial?

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

posted 02-10-2005 10:51 PM

Let me first say that my experience with 70mm projection is limited to running four shows on a pair of rather elderly JJs in a temporary setup.

Having said that, one of the things that I noticed right away was that stopping the film mid-reel seems like it would be almost asking for sprocket damage or a film break (with acetate film) due to the higher speed and heavier weight of the reels, when compared with 35mm (I didn't have floating-hub reels for these shows--perhaps they make a difference). I didn't actually test this theory, however.

Can anyone with more 70mm experience comment on whether or not the film can be safely stopped and re-started in the middle of a reel? (This is just a general question--not a specific comment about what may or may not have happened at the Aero.)

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 02-10-2005 10:57 PM

Brad,
Paul H. Rayton.... But a quick search for Paul Rayton turned up he last post in the Equipemnt For Sale Threads.

Scott,
With properly set up reel arms(clutches) its not a real problem on any projector except on machines with Jack rabbit startups. Double reels of 70mm might be a bit of a problem though and I don't reccomend it. Of course floating hubs make for more reliable operation where ever that much weight can be encountered. I've run tons (literally) of old 70mm acetate on ancient JJ's that I used to own. Those were always equipped with 35/70 Kelmar arms and worked fine. Even the original Century clutches work fine if they are properly maintained.

Mark

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Dan Lyons
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 698
From: Seal Beach, CA
Registered: Sep 2002

posted 02-18-2005 03:54 PM

any new info yet?

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Darren Briggs
Master Film Handler

Posts: 371
From: York, UK
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 02-18-2005 04:17 PM

Having screened over 30 screenings to the public over the last 2 years (3 screenings this week alone - http://www.uk70mm.com/programme/sheltersky.html ), and checked what must be nearly 150 reels of 70mm, I can assure you you can stop and start a reel as much as you like if your projector is running off an inverter with a good slow start and a ramped down stop. Even when running froma platter you can stop and start as much as you want.

Running on either Vic 8's, DP70's or DP75's as mentioned above, 70mm can be treated just like 35mm film.

Keep and eye on www.uk70mm for UK 70mm screenings.

Darren

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 02-18-2005 05:18 PM

Basically what Darren said.

Scott, the JJs ramp up/down too fast to be able to truly happily be stopping and starting mid-reel without a little "operator assist" just to be safe. You can however run off of a platter and stop and start all you want, or control the ramp up/down speed on the JJ with an inverter. Just be careful when you are using a platter and decide to restart towards the end of a really long movie (like Titanic). Because you could have 200 pounds of film on the platter, the takeup mechanism could "take off" enough to crash. In this instance, just have a hand on the edge of the deck to slow it for the first couple of seconds and you will be fine.

I do disagree that "70mm can be treated just like 35mm film." 70mm is more fragile than regular 35mm film and has more stress put upon it during projection. As such the gate components in particular must be precisely aligned to prevent damage, and extra attention must be given towards the magnetic soundtrack to ensure it does not get damaged or partially erased during projection. Hopefully Darren said that comment in reference only to stopping and starting. [Wink]

...and where is Paul with the report on how the sprockets of the film was viewable on screen, yet somehow no film was damaged? [Confused]

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Darren Briggs
Master Film Handler

Posts: 371
From: York, UK
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 02-18-2005 06:32 PM

Yes Brad i was refering to the actual starting and stopping of the film in the projector.

I agree, some platters are a little less than smooth at starting.
Cinemeccaninca are maybe a little too slow and is safer to give it a help up to speed on prints like 'Lawrence' Part 1, otherwise you will never have a print thrown on one of these.
Kinoton are a little snatchy at times when re-starting.
I've not run 70mm on a strong, wouldnt like to really. Hate them on 35mm.

People who damage 70mm prints should be shot, mind you damaging a 35mm print is un-acceptable.

Darren

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 02-19-2005 02:38 PM

quote: Darren Briggs
People who damage 70mm prints should be shot...

...and before that, taken to a cellar for a close encounter with The Gimp, closely followed by one of Brett's Filmguard enemas. Then you can shoot 'em. [Wink]

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 07-02-2005 02:42 AM

Ok Mark, over 4 months have passed and Paul made a post today in another forum, so he is indeed alive and well with internet access.

Where's this explanation he promised of how sprockets can be seen projected on screen without damaging a frame of film? It is a sin you know to damage 70mm film. [Wink]

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-02-2005 09:29 AM

quote: Brad Miller
Ok Mark, over 4 months have passed and Paul made a post today in another forum, so he is indeed alive and well with internet access.

Where's this explanation he promised of how sprockets can be seen projected on screen without damaging a frame of film? It is a sin you know to damage 70mm film.

Why not e-mail him and ask him your self? Actually its a sin to damage ANY film...... [Roll Eyes]

Mark

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 07-02-2005 02:18 PM

Because you were the one who made the hoopola on the first page about talking to him and how far off base the story was.

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 07-04-2005 05:00 AM

When you configure a projector for a slow ramp-up speed which seems like an excellent way to ease stress on the film, won't that cause a potential problem for change-over operation? Would you wind up having to thread-up on #5 or #4, even #3 on the sycn leader to compensate for the slow startup? And how exactly do you incorporate an inverter to get the ramp-up? Is the ramp timing adjustable?

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 07-04-2005 06:34 AM

Yes, yes and yes. You can program the ramp up speed to be whatever you want...2 seconds, 7 seconds, 80 seconds! Obviously you have to thread on a lower number of the countdown if you are going to have the machine start slower. It doesn't take long to figure out exactly where though. In fact the Sharpie test is probably the easiest one.

Thread projector with junk film (preferably fullcoat or painted leader).

Start other projector near the reel end.

Hold Sharpie marker in aperture of projector with junk film with other hand on it's motor switch and eyes on the screen, such that the marker is touching the film itself.

Turn on the motor as soon as you see the first changeover cue as if you were going to make a changeover to that projector.

The instant you see the last frame of film project, jerk the Sharpie marker out of the aperture on the projector that just ramped up with junk film.

You now have yourself a length of film that is literally "marked" as to how many feet/frames ahead of the "0" frame based upon the rampup of that projector. Run that through a frame counter and there you have it.

(Note - remove a few frames from that marked length of film to account for human slop/error as needed. This will be damned close though. [thumbsup]

)

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Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002

posted 07-04-2005 07:05 AM

quote: Frank Angel
Would you wind up having to thread-up on #5 or #4, even #3 on the sycn leader to compensate for the slow startup?

What does it matter where you have to lace up to get the changeover timing right? The only thing that matters is that the speed at which the machine runs up is consistant every time; how long it takes doesn't matter. Actually, I suppose In theory it would be a problem if the machine started *incrediby* slowly, so that you had to lace up just a few frames before the start of picture, but nothing's going to start up that slowly.

I think the latest point I've ever had to lace up, with Academy leader is a few frames after the '6'. This assumes of course that the cues are in the right place.

Has anybody else noticed that recently the motor cue tends to come early? It's not consistant, even between reels of the same print sometimes, but on many prints it's around 5-8 frames early. I'm talking about printed cues, not ones which somebody has scribed on by hand.

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 07-04-2005 08:00 AM

Yup. Done it many times, Brad. In one theatre we actually had a descrepance between the machines. One projector need to have [8]+4 frames in the gate and the other [9]+1 frame in the gate. Too many just pop in #8 and leave it at that. In fact after my first mentor taught me the method you detailed, another projectionist told me that was all crap, just put it on [3] so that if you miss, you will never have leader showing on the screen. When I told him I didn't think that was right, he said, "What do you think the black is for between number 3 and the picture? It's so if you are "late" all that happens is the screen goes black for a second. That's why it's there."
He was a Union projectionist. Quite a number of his collegues did the same thing. This was in the local that covers Houston TX. Lucky for me, I had the a real craftsman as a teacher before I ever ran into these oafs.

quote: Stephen Furley
What does it matter where you have to lace up to get the changeover timing right? The only thing that matters is that the speed at which the machine runs up is consistant every time; how long it takes doesn't matter.

Granted, Stephen, but there is concern that the sound drum might not stabilize with such a short roll-in. This was one of the issues that the SMPTE Projection Practices Committee debated back in the late 70s when they were working on standardizing the SMPTE Universal leader -- the TV people wanted it much shorter --after all, what did they need all that count-down time for? all they had to do is hit PLAY button and they are at speed in fractions of a second. Theatrical people on the other hand pleaded to leave the countdown at a substantial lengh that would allow the incoming projector sound drum to reach speed and stabilze.

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