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Author Topic: SRD - Penthouse or Basement - preference? Richard Fowler Film God Posts: 2392 From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA Registered: Jun 2001 posted 04-15-2005 10:11 AM                     the Kelmar basement unit is very nice but we had a customer complain about the dual led bracket does not allow for individual adjustment for analog or digital pickup....so when new no problems but as the led aged, the tech would have to favor either the analog or digital reader.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-15-2005 03:18 PM                     That is not true...one has to set up the reader properly. The two readers are not fixed...in fact both move. It is certainly more work to set up a Kelmar, but it is also quite doable and once done no big deal. The one thing I don't like is that you kinda have to set up the analog twice...first to set the LED bracket...then you dial the digital reader in, then you go back and reset the analog...it is kinda hard to explain. On Component Engineering...it is easy to get everything into alignment fast. They also provide for LED adjustment (independant) as well as precise alignment of the LEDs/Readers with respect the sound drum.  |  IP: Logged Richard Fowler Film God Posts: 2392 From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA Registered: Jun 2001 posted 04-15-2005 04:45 PM                     This was from six years ago so I may be not up to speed  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 04-15-2005 05:28 PM                     Frank, One thing to seriously consider is if you will be running any prints that have seen alot of previous use. You may experience alot higher error rates and print wear that may not playback with a basement reader where the penthouse reader will work just fine! You also need to open up the Kelmar supply to see that there is really a digital power supply board in the case. On many Kelmars there is an LED for digital but nothing else in the case for it..... MArk  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-15-2005 11:15 PM                     I'll put my basement readers up against anyone's penthouse readers...new or old prints.  |  IP: Logged Frank Angel Film God Posts: 5305 From: Brooklyn NY USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-16-2005 12:33 AM                        I misspoke. I meant Component Engineering, not BACP. And besides, everything was pulled out from under me today as the lighting and sound department got all the money because what they are purchasing will say labor and generate money (wireless mics that we can rent our clients). Cinema remains the bastard child. But they promised me that I get first crack at the next budget go-around. So that just gives me more time to add more stuff they are gonna have to buy me....punishment/guilt for them stealing all my new toys. Luckily for me, it seems there will be more money available in next budget and I get first crack at it. I guess I shouldn't have tweaked the ole CP50 & the system all these years making it sound so good because my boss kept saying today as I cried in his office, "But I don't understand why do you need a new processor....the sound in Whitman is better than most the theatres I go to....tell me again why we have to spend $30,000?" "Because I am playing the BACKUP tracks," says I. "If they fail, we have no backup!" Then I repeated the word DIGITAL about a thousand times. This he understood. Yah, yah, I have to hang my head in shame when I look in the mirror in the morning, but I am learning to deal with it. Oh, and anyone wanna jump in on recommending a good interlock system for 3D, give it a shot. I would be nice if it also gave me the ability to run variable speed for silent and kick it up to 30fps for that one 35mm Todd-AO print they supposedly struck ten years ago. Will running the XL at 30 chew up any break-away gears or those brass gears in the soundhead transmission?  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 04-16-2005 10:41 AM                     quote: Steve Guttag I'll put my basement readers up against anyone's penthouse readers...new or old prints. Steve, I realize you've got to cover your butt on this , and.... Basement readers have gotten ALOT better, about equal to a CAT 701 penthouse, however they still are not as good as what the DSTR, or 702 reader cranks out. You can definatley make that claim when basement readers get to utilize the technology designed for the DSTR and then also liscensed to Dolby for the 702... In 2nd run theatres I've seen prints not playback reliably with the later C.E. basement readers but play acceptably on the DSTR. There are good places for basement readers however they're still not good in a sub run situation, or with a very worn print. Frank, Hang in there.... budgets are a pain in the you know what. Just be sure to ding the next budget for double what you told them it woulda been this time..... Mark  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-16-2005 02:56 PM                     Mark, I'm not covering my butt...I just don't have the basement reader problem you or others claim and I CATER to sub-run and Art house theatres. I've installed basement readers back in the EPT lamp days, the 1st generation red readers and the current crop. I've done basement readers from Kelmar and Component Engineering as retrofits and Component Engineering and Kinoton as new as OEM installs...I'll put my basements up against your penthouses...they will track any film your penthouses will. In fact, I did a premier with a basement reader in a 4-star Simplex (CE basement)...to which the studio (Disney) and Dolby were nervous (1st generation LED basement)...I bet them it would track 1 point below what they go on their penthouse....I didn't loose the bet either. If you have a problem with a basement reader from either Kelmar or Component Engineering...either it isn't set up properly or the soundhead needs repairs that it should have to run analog at its optimum. The lenses do indeed vary among the manufacturers and models (CE uses a shorter lens for their Century basement digital reader...I believe it is the same or similar one that is used on Dolby's penthouse)...the results on best focus will vary based on that...but in terms of tracking and drop outs...nope...my basements track with anything that a penthouse can track to. When we sell penthouses to those machines that don't support baement readers (no reader is available or the soundhead sucks for analog too) then we use the BACP penthouse...it is a winner. At the National Geographic Society in DC...we installed an LED switch to turn off the LED to conserve it... it is power 24Hours a day and only infrequently runs films.  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 04-16-2005 05:18 PM                        On set up of Kelmar reader: We set up the digital perfectly, disregarding analog entirely (sometimes not even connecting it yet) Then mount the analog and do 100% of the adjustment with the analog reader; first level, then pink, then cat 566, then a tweak of level. Once you begin analog, NEVER touch the machine lateral guide adjustment or the L.E.D......this has been hard for many to learn...it just "untweaks" the digital. The down side of this is that any adjustment of the digital means that you must do the analog over from scratch. A "compromise" set up is unnecessary and incorrect. As regards "error rate:" I can consistenly better the penthouses; with the best numbers going to Century direct drive, Century standard drive then the Simplexes. This corresponds exactly with analog flutter readings. (On SH-1000 style soundheads there is considerable wow but it is apparently slow enough for the processor to resolve it. The wow is the speed of the large gear...which is not round.)  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-16-2005 05:58 PM                     Louis, If you have any felt G-1985 pinch rollers laying about...try them on your 4-star soundhead...check your error readings before and after...the difference is quite amazing. The biggest problem I've encountered with Simplex soundheads is pinchroller bounce where a stiff pinch roller combined with crud will cause the roller to bouce and create a jitter. Keep em clean and no problems. I agree, the Century soundheads generally come out nicer though they sometimes have their bearing receivers a bit off from one another. A Component Engineering Century basement reader is pretty damn good.  |  IP: Logged Mike Babb Master Film Handler Posts: 250 From: Norwich UK Registered: Jul 2002 posted 04-16-2005 07:45 PM                        This one is mainly for Louis or Steve but anyone else feel free to chime in. I more or less work with Louis' method of making sure digital is right before analog is done but also completely understand Steve's bouncing back and forth and do a version of it. I "center" the controls on the digital and board on analog before starting as well. My question though is if you had to adjust the lateral on the sound head, which do you prefer to nail, the digital and then bump the analog reader or analog and then bump the digital, or some combination of the two?  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-16-2005 08:20 PM                     Are you doing a Century or Simplex, Kelmar or Component Engineering?  |  IP: Logged Mike Babb Master Film Handler Posts: 250 From: Norwich UK Registered: Jul 2002 posted 04-16-2005 08:52 PM                        This would apply to Kelmar I imagine, but I'm asking generally, not for specific situation. I know with CE you can move the LED laterally. Seems like if you center a Kelmar digital tube perfectly and the soundhead lateral guide on that, the analog might need to be bumped slightly. Or the same in reverse. Oops sorry, Simplex 5* but I think the same q would apply to Century in this case.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-17-2005 12:58 AM                     In general, you should align the analog first. With CE...always analog first. The lateral adjustment of the solar cell is quite limited thus you want the film to be fixed to the analog cell. With CE you then bring the LED into alignment with that. After that is said and done...the digital can then be brought into alignment with what you have already done...again, with CE the LED can be precisely matched to what you have done in the analog alignment so both are exactly where they need to be. The CE digital reader allows for easy lateral adjustment to have it dead center. What you don't have with the CE reader is the ability to move either reader vertically BUT they reference their readers off the sound drum and then pin everything so that alignment remains true. It is rather easy and fast to bring a CE system into precise alignment. On the Kelmar system...for Century there is way too much demolition that is needed but good results can be had. I've done several JJs with the Kelmar (they are the only ones that properly support the R-50 soundhead for 70mm to bypass through the head). Kelmar's problem is that their LEDs do not adjust and that they have too many variables. The LED bracket is not referenced to anything and is limited to just the mounting screws. Likewise, there is nothing really referenced on the analog reader...just limited by the mounting screws. As such, you can have the LEDs skewed to the reader pick up and hence some back-and-forth alignment may be needed to get it all precise. Since laterally you are most restricted on the analog side...you really should start there but since you pretty much have to remove the analog reader to fully adjust the digital one...you kinda have to finish with the analog reader. Century is much more of a pain system in either case...their machining has generally sucked throughout the years. You almost need the CE 30-series to properly align the older Centuries (and some of the later ones too). The film should not skew as it goes from sprocket, to drum to sprocket...as such you may need to adjust the reverse reader cell to get it to laterally center up on the film...likewise the LED may need to be shimmed (on a Kelmar) to get it to line up. I have not come across this on any Simplex but several Centurys. Another variable in the analog alignment is how the various companies have dealt with reflections in their lens tubes....Kelmar silk screens their cells while CE hand paints them (on the outer part of the slit)...sometimes the silk screen isn't well aligned. With the analog cell you really are aiming for a bullseye. The center must be center and the edges of the modulations should not be clipped. With digital, you have a CCD that is wider than the image...you have some slop factor. This is another reason I get analog precisely aligned first, then bring digital into conformity. Note too, on the CE readers, it is pretty easy to adjust magnification on both the digital and analog readers and sometimes you are best served by checking those...too little magnification on the analog will have your cell picking up the edges of the track and finding time code or other noises. However, regardless of which system, digital or analog, one should get their soundhead mechanically right...it all starts there.  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 04-17-2005 07:49 AM                        Mike: I center everything on the Kelmar, do Digital, then I find I have to "bump" the analog very slightly to make the lateral position "work." (BTW with analog at lowest current, I get Dolby level at 66% on the CP-500 bargraph, the same as I do with non-digital Kelmar red LED installations.) I NEVER touch the Digital once it is correct. I not have much experience with the other reader companies, having started with Kelmar. I agree that field installation of the Kelmar/Century is a bear. We usually do a frame swap with a previously machined casting from our stock. In the event that we ship a customer one of our Century "upgrades" (NOT a rebuild) we machine off the exciter mounts and precut the hole for Digital as well as clear off the slag and slot the old wiring compartment. If you don't then the LED will not always mount square and flat. If the customer only wants analog, then the old Davis bridge is reinstalled and a small piece of sheet metal covers the hole; digital later is then easy.  |  IP: Logged

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