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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » DTS - SRD Levels and quality considerations (Page 4)

 
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Author Topic: DTS - SRD Levels and quality considerations
Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002

- posted 05-12-2005 06:53 AM      Profile for Michael Schaffer   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Schaffer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Sorry, people, but… how/why did you become technicians? Isn’t there in you any curiosity, any hunger for knowledge?
There is hunger for knowledge, but there is also insight and moving on to more important matters. We all at one point spent a lot of time trying to squeeze the best out of sound systems, trying different systems and configurations etc. But then there comes a point in that "development" when you realize that those differences don't really matter very much or even at all, and that there are more important matters. A lot of US premieres are run in Dolby Digital, do you think the people who make the movies don't know what they want and settle for "the second best"? Nonsense. The reality is that you would not be able to pick the difference between Dolby and DTS in a true blind test. Don't kid yourself into believing you would. I am sure there are also those who will swear that they can hear a degradation of the DTS signal because in that setup the analog output of the DTS-6D is converted into the digital domain at the CP650 external input while the Dolby Digital goes through one conversion stage less blablablabla

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Lyle Romer
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1400
From: Davie, FL, USA
Registered: May 2002

- posted 05-12-2005 10:26 AM      Profile for Lyle Romer   Email Lyle Romer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Brad Miller
I have done this test for many people and everyone agrees that even on a direct A/B/C comparison, the difference is SO MINISCUAL that it is damn near impossible to tell
As further evidence of this, I was told a story first hand about SDDS trying to convince the "Technical Manager" (I can't remember exactly what his title was) of a major chain how superior SDDS was to SRD. They set up an A/B comparison and the Sony rep kept switching back and forth between formats (with a remote switch) and explaining how much different the sound was between the two. The technical manager then told the Sony rep to give him the remote. He put it behind his back and told the Sony rep to tell him when a format switch was made and which one was playing at the time. The Sony rep got it wrong a lot more times than he got it right. Sometimes he would say there was a switch when there wasn't.

quote: Michael Schaffer
A lot of US premieres are run in Dolby Digital, do you think the people who make the movies don't know what they want and settle for "the second best"?
Even more to that point, if one of the systems was actually superior to the other two, I'd think that some film makers or sound editors/designers would come out and endorse it to try to get their films played in it.

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Antonio Marcheselli
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1260
From: Florence, Italy
Registered: Mar 2000

- posted 05-12-2005 02:34 PM      Profile for Antonio Marcheselli   Author's Homepage   Email Antonio Marcheselli   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Michael

Basically I didn't start this discussion to ends in the "which is better" thread! I didn't told that I was able to hear the difference between SRD and DTS. If you read my starting post I said that I made the test with a LOOP of THX "Broadway 2000" trailer AND a channel a time.

After a dozen of passage I was able to fully appreciate the differences between formats. Sure, I will be NOT able to understand the sound format used at first chance, never said it. So if I'll see a demonstration in the Brad's wonderful screening room (I hope I can seat in it sometime!), you'll laugh in my face for sure .

About the dubbed versions, I stay on my opinion, Michael. I'm a projectionist, my job is to have the best presentation possibile. I'll find all the best I can to have the best it, even if the source material is not as good as yours; doesn't matter, it is the material we're used for since decades, it is the "Cinema" we're used for.
Few days ago on "Studio Universal" there was an interview with Steven Spielberg. An opinon on dubbed version was asked. He said that the best would be not to dub a movie, but with all dubbing tecniques the "Italian way" is the best.
Sometime on some scenes, he said, the dubbed version is better than the original (he was referring at a moment of "The untouchables" with De Niro)!!

Bye
A

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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002

- posted 05-12-2005 04:59 PM      Profile for Michael Schaffer   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Schaffer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It didn't occur to you that Steven just said that to make the viewers of that program happy?
I know that your job is to give the "best possible presentation". If you play movies through a good well-aligned sound system, you are doing that (at least as far as sound is concerned - how is your image stability and illumination?), no matter if you are playing Dolby Digital or DTS. It makes no real difference.

Another factor which comes into play here - I believe it was already mentioned - is that those logo trailers do not necessarily have to sound or be, from a measurement point of view, exactly the same in each format. I can't remember all details right now, but I seem to recall I read an article about a similar test involving either cinema logo trailers, or measurements of the audio content of such trailers on consumer media (again Dolby vs. DTS). It was found that they measured differently, and I believe the whole matter was investigated by Tomlinson Holman himself who concluded that there are tiny variations in even the best maintained sound studio which account for those differences, such as different levels of humidity. A lot of that material still comes from magnetic masters.

What does make sense is to set the system up so to play in DTS and revert to Dolby Digital, not Dolby SR, when DTS drops out. Not necessarily because DTS sounds so much better, but because it is nearly impossible to set up a reversion strategy DD-DTS-SR with the hardware you have. But you can modify it to have the DTS-6D pulse the CP650 into 10 rather than 05. Did you do that?

quote: Lyle Romer
The Sony rep got it wrong a lot more times than he got it right. Sometimes he would say there was a switch when there wasn't.
That reminds me of a story when a TV team from Germany interviewed a very high Coke rep and at the end of the interview, they gave him a Coke bottle they had filled up with Pepsi and asked him to take a good sip for the camera. He took his sip "aaaaah - Coke is still the best!" When they aired this, they got into a lot of trouble. Coke threatened with lawsuits etc. and they had to apologize and say it was just hoax. I think I can tell the difference between Coke and Pepsi reliably BTW [Big Grin]

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

- posted 05-13-2005 05:17 AM      Profile for Manny Knowles   Email Manny Knowles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This kind of experimentation is (sort-of) interesting but it falls way outside of a theatre tech's job. Not that it isn't worth pursuing but, as Michael S. suggests, all of the basics had better be covered. Otherwise, Antonio's use of his time and other resources might be called into question.

...and don't use those logo trailers for this sort of comparative testing. They're known to have different mixes!!! Come to think of it, this actually proves it. Doesn't it?

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Antonio Marcheselli
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1260
From: Florence, Italy
Registered: Mar 2000

- posted 05-13-2005 11:26 AM      Profile for Antonio Marcheselli   Author's Homepage   Email Antonio Marcheselli   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Michael

I fully agree with you that there is a "development" moment. So this is mine! I believe that a tech should always be open to new tecniques and procedures, but I still have to develop mine! Or should I trust blindly at yours or someone's else tecniques? Not to judge your opinions, I fully respect them. But I'm sure that all of you started on the basis of other theories and then experiment your personal ideas and tecniques, isn't it true?

Manny's reply is, IMHO, very appropriate, I didn't know that it is known that THX trailers have differents sound mix for differents formats. If I'll have the chance, I'll make the same tests with a loop of a movie.

Michael,
What you say is right. But do you really think that I'm spending my nights trying to better understand my sound systems and I allow my shows to revert to SR? Do you simply really think that I allow my shows to REVERT??? Do you really think that while the sound systems are truly checked I allow my movies to be showed with poorly centered lamps or with poorly image stability? Of course I cannot do miracles, I'm not the theater owner and I try to do my best with the equipment I have.
But you're really underestimate me, we had a long chat months ago!!! [Wink]

Bye
A

[ 05-13-2005, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: Antonio Marcheselli ]

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

- posted 05-13-2005 07:12 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Hmmm, how odd. This from page 1, nine days ago...

quote: Brad Miller
use an actual reel from a movie, not a sound demo. It is not uncommon for different versions of a sound demo logo trailer to have noticeably different mixes. The biggest offender of this to date is the THX Broadway as you compare it to the 3 different digital formats.
This from page 4, posted today...

quote: Antonio Marcheselli
I didn't know that it is known that THX trailers have differents sound mix for differents formats.
It helps to read the replies, doesn't it Antonio? [Razz]

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Antonio Marcheselli
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1260
From: Florence, Italy
Registered: Mar 2000

- posted 05-13-2005 07:49 PM      Profile for Antonio Marcheselli   Author's Homepage   Email Antonio Marcheselli   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes Brad, I read your reply too! [Smile]
What I mean is that I didn't know that before you and Manny told it to me!

If I do not read your replies, why should I post here?! [Wink]

When I'll have a bit of time I'll make the same test with a loop of movie.

Oh, BTW, I've finished installing my subwoofers. I have 11 now [Eek!] [Eek!] . There was somewhere an old thread on how many subs has been installed at maximum. If I correctly remember the maximum was by Steve and was 6... Then, there are 11 subs, 12 cones since one is a 4688... Oh, Steve, I finally followed your suggestions, I bought an RDL ST-CX1 filter and applyed to the 4645B...

The sound is... fascinating! [Smile]

Bye
A

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Thomas Jonsson
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 216
From: Bromolla, Sweden
Registered: Sep 2003

- posted 05-14-2005 09:15 AM      Profile for Thomas Jonsson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Antonio,
I have probably missed something. Do you mean you have 11 sub woofers all together in your plex, or in one auditorium alone?

Thomas

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Antonio Marcheselli
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1260
From: Florence, Italy
Registered: Mar 2000

- posted 05-15-2005 08:25 AM      Profile for Antonio Marcheselli   Author's Homepage   Email Antonio Marcheselli   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
One auditorium alone.

Bye
A

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Thomas Jonsson
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 216
From: Bromolla, Sweden
Registered: Sep 2003

- posted 05-15-2005 10:23 AM      Profile for Thomas Jonsson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Antonio
Why in the wide, wide world do you need 11 subwoofers?

Thomas

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John Hawkinson
Film God

Posts: 2273
From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

- posted 05-15-2005 12:46 PM      Profile for John Hawkinson   Email John Hawkinson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So, Antonio, what's the geometry of your auditorium and how are the eleven subs arranged? How are they amped?

Thanks!

--jhawk

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Antonio Marcheselli
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1260
From: Florence, Italy
Registered: Mar 2000

- posted 05-15-2005 01:37 PM      Profile for Antonio Marcheselli   Author's Homepage   Email Antonio Marcheselli   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The auditorium is 30 meter long. 20,5 meter wide the screen.

About the subs, it is not an ideal setup. They're 8 Martin Audio, 2 JBL 4645B and 1 JBL 4688.

Since it is not a permanent setup, I had to use the wires available. So I have

1 DCA 2422 in Bridge mode (2400W 4 Ohm) for 2 Martin Audio
1 DCA 2422 in Bridge mode (2400W 4 Ohm) for 2 Martin Audio
1 DCA 2422 in Bridge mode (2400W 4 Ohm) for 2 Martin Audio
1 JBL MPX600 in Bridge mode (1700W 4Ohm) for 2 JBL 4645B with RDL boost filter
1 channel of a DCA2422 (I know that it is not optimal, only 700W for two subs) for 2 Martin Audio
1 channel of a DCA2422 for 1 JBL 4688

BTW, when a DCA is connected using Dataport and has a spare channel, can I use the spare channel with the CH2 Euro input?

Don't tell me, it is not the best setup since there are mixed subwoofers brands and amplifiers, plus some subs are not adequately amplified.
Just think it as a gift for a friend that it is not anymore with us... [Frown]

Bye
A

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Thomas Jonsson
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 216
From: Bromolla, Sweden
Registered: Sep 2003

- posted 05-15-2005 03:37 PM      Profile for Thomas Jonsson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Antonio,
I´m very sorry about your friend.

Ok, a very big auditorium. Explains the need for a lot of bass.
I still think 11 sounds a lot. In your opinion, does it make a
big difference compared to what you had before, and can you
explain in what way?

Thomas

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Antonio Marcheselli
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1260
From: Florence, Italy
Registered: Mar 2000

- posted 05-15-2005 04:02 PM      Profile for Antonio Marcheselli   Author's Homepage   Email Antonio Marcheselli   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I believe that when you're talking about bass frequencies you'll never reach "too much"!!

Having the enclosures working at maximum half power improve dramatically the frequency response and the dynamic.

Probably I could reach the same results with less subs if the subs were all 4645B or TL880D (before what Steve said!). Martin are good subs but they could do better! [Smile]

Bye
A

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