my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home

» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Crackling on 30+ year old print (Page 2)

This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2

Author Topic: Crackling on 30+ year old print Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 10-21-2005 10:48 PM                     I have seen that Sam. Not sure what causes it though. Dan Chilton - run the print in Dolby A and listen to the left channel, and then the right channel in the monitor. I'm betting your noise is in the right channel, which would point back to Dan Lyons' explanation. The print has shrunken ever so slightly and that is throwing off your lateral alignment just enough to pick up the edge of the track.  |  IP: Logged Dan Chilton Expert Film Handler Posts: 191 From: Springfield, MO Registered: Mar 2004 posted 10-21-2005 10:55 PM                        I'll have to wait until 11:45 to test it.  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 10-22-2005 02:28 AM                     quote: Aaron Sisemore Sorry, thats a peeve of mine. I Fully agree. And I still hear that from some people who question the cuemarks that they see on the movies....really bugs me also.. I loved the pretty "purple" stars that were on the early technicolor, pre-anamorphic, prints. Technicolor used the neat "green circles" for their cuemarks, DeLuxe (or eastman) had the "black dots", import movies had those hard to see black circles, to booth idiots who can't see, scratching a line through the marks to see them easier, or taking a "heart",or "cloverleaf" paper punch to make their own to were it was so obvious, it was horrible. quote: Leo Enticknap Out of curiosity I'd still like to know whether this was an area or density track, and if area, of what variety (single unilateral/bilateral, RCA duplex, shuttered NR etc.). ...original variable density recording was almost done for after safety film came out. Other soundtracks methods reproduced sound much better as time rolled along. This early 70's era was mainly the dual bilateral variable area (with the exception of the 35mm "fox sprocketed" mag prints with the inboard track covered by the center channel mag striping), yet once in a while, a single bilateral variable area and/or a RCA duplex variable area would float through in the releases. -Monte [ 10-22-2005, 04:08 AM: Message edited by: Monte L Fullmer ]  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 10-22-2005 05:17 AM                        quote: Monte L Fullmer ...original variable density recording was almost done for after safety film came out. Other soundtracks methods reproduced sound much better as time rolled along. My impression is that it was done for quite a bit earlier than that as far as studio mastering went, and only really continued into the '40s because of Western Electric-equipped studios trying to avoid paying to use RCA patents. The big problem was that sensitometry was a lot more critical for VD than VA: all it took was a tiny printing or developing error to seriously affect the s/n ratio. VD continued for release printing quite a bit longer (I've come across them from as late as the '60s, especially for low budget and 16mm instructional films) because prints are usually struck 'one light' anyway, and VD was a bit more tolerant of slight cell misalignments in '40s and '50s era projectors. But when a VD print shrinks it can sound seriously weird, in my experience, loss of HF being the main symptom. Most types of VA seem to cope with this a bit better. If a print has shrunk so much that the cell is reading the outer edge of the track, I'm a bit surprised that it's not having a visible impact on the picture, too.  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 10-22-2005 06:44 AM                        I've seen density tracks on prints of films made at least through the 1950s. I know that I have a "Let's Go to the Lobby" trailer with a density track (IB Tech, too, but very splicy). I also have a 3-reel short from the 1950s (reprinted in the 1970s) where two reels have a density track, and one has an area track. Weird. It sounds fine, though. Oh, and if Brad is correct and if the original poster has a CP500, it's entirely possible to create a custom format (left channel only, no NR) to play that print.  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 10-22-2005 07:06 AM                     The 8-perf print that I've seen a reel of projected, and have a couple of frames of, from 'Battle of the River Plate', 1956, had a VD track, I don't know if the normal 4-perf prints did. This was printed on Eastmancolor, now very faded. I have a IB Technicolor print of the Lotte Reiniger animated 'Jack and the Beanstalk', (1955), which is also VD; obviously in this case a silver track. I also have both 16mm and 35mm prints of the BP film 'We've Come a Long Way'; the BBC used to show it as one of their 'Trade Test Colour Films', when Colour television was introduced in this country, but normal programmes were not broadcast all day. The 16mm print has a VD track, while the 35mm one has a VA track. When I saw this film on television I assumed that it had been made in the '60s; but when I acquired the 35mm print I realised it was older, as it had nitrate edge markings (printed through from the negative; the print itself is triacetate). In 2001 there was a display at the National Film Theatre for the 50th anniversary of the Festival of Britain. In the display was a still from this film, which was shown at the festival. VD does seem to be very much the exception by the 50s though, at least for feature films, and major labs. It was very common on 16mm prints when I was at school, though most of those prints probably dated from the '50s. These were Eastmancolor, similar to the 'Battle of the River Plate' track, and equally faded, even when I was running them, in the early '70s. Interesting that this type of track was still being used at that time (When the prints were made) on both 16mm and VistaVision; from one extreme to the other! I don't know which lab printed these films, but I would think it quite likely that the Vista one was by Rank, and their prints did seem more prone to fading than those from other labs at that time. When LGP Cine had their shop at Rayners Lane Larry had a board just inside the door with various film samples on it. One of these was Standard 8 with optical track, alongside the perforations, as with magnetic, and somewhat wider than a Super-8 optical track. Larry said that the format was experimental, and he didn't think it had ever been put into production; he also said that he thought it dated from about 1965. If this date is correct it might explain why the format was never adopted! This track was VD, on black and white stock, I'm not sure if it was a print, or something recorded directly in the camera; 8mm prints are made with the emulsion on the opposide side to 35mm, to match camera originals. This would be very late for a new VD format. Leo, to take up your point about how critical the exposure and processing of tracks is, in the '60s I was played a short demonstration film by an old projectionist. I don't know who this film was made by, probably either a lab or an equipment manufacturer. I can't remember if there was any picture, but it had a VD track. There were several sections, the first correctly exposed and processed, and the others with small variations in such parameters as recorder lamp current, processor speed, developer temperature etc. The effect on the quality of sound reproduction was dramatic. Has anyone else seen this film? It would be interesting to know if a copy survives anywhere. The film was quite old even when I saw it, probably made in about the early to mid '30s I would guess. The projectionist has been dead for about 30 years, and the cinema long closed, and now demolished. Leo also mentioned unilateral tracks; the sample of Dolby stereo optical on the BKSTS wallchart, at least the first version of it, is in a strange format with two narrow unilateral tracks, which I've never seen used on any other print, stereo or mono. Obviously this was long after unilateral tracks went out of normal use; does anybody know anything about this?  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 10-22-2005 12:39 PM                     I have encoountered reels with VD sections during musical numbers from the late 60's one recordist told me that any musical sequences they recorded VD becuase it had beter SN and hi freq response  |  IP: Logged Bruce Hansen Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 847 From: Stone Mountain, GA, USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 10-22-2005 02:29 PM                     Getting back to the orignal question for a moment, could it be some sort of static problem? If the film was/is on metal reels, that could explain the problem going away near the end of the reel, where the metal reel has discharged the static. Have you tried some Film Guard? Have you taken a close look at the sound track area?  |  IP: Logged Christian Appelt Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 505 From: Frankfurt, Germany Registered: Dec 2001 posted 10-22-2005 05:03 PM                     Check the print for small horizontal or slightly tilted scratches in soundtrack area. The film could have been scratched by wrong makeup with a warped platter, these small scratches might cause that crackling sound. I had such a print with base scratches in soundtrack area, and treating the print with FilmGuard definitely made for cleaner playback (except for some really deep scratches).  |  IP: Logged Peter Mork Expert Film Handler Posts: 181 From: Newton, MA, USA Registered: Jun 2002 posted 10-22-2005 06:29 PM                     This is a mono track, right? I once cured a track with regular popping noises simply by masking off the part of the photocell that was reading the damaged part of the track. Try moving a card in and out over the cell as it plays. If you're lucky, it might work, and you can figure out a way to tape it in place for that show.  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 10-23-2005 08:21 AM                        Amplifing Peter Mork's idea: On older Dolby processors, it is possible to use format 01 and then unplug one noise reduction card at a time for best sound. Sprocket run prints were quite usable in this way. Louis  |  IP: Logged Marc Hansen Film Handler Posts: 93 From: Seattle, WA, USA Registered: Dec 2000 posted 10-23-2005 10:25 AM                     Louis- Are those cards hot-swapable or do you need to shut the system down to do that? Thanks  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 10-23-2005 12:41 PM                     Also it is possible to force the cat22 into a cleanup filter mode I don't have the instructions anymore but one could derive it from the old 364  |  IP: Logged Robert Throop Master Film Handler Posts: 412 From: Vernon, NY USA Registered: Jun 99 posted 10-23-2005 12:53 PM                     On older Dolby processors, it is possible to use format 01 and then unplug one noise reduction card at a time for best sound. Sprocket run prints were quite usable in this way. Louis I thought that format 01 bypassed the noise reduction. Bob  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 10-23-2005 07:55 PM                        On cat 22 I have always been OK hot swapping them. Yes the audio goes through them even in -01 format. Noise reduction is turned off, however. Louis  |  IP: Logged

All times are Central (GMT -6:00)

This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2

Printer-friendly view of this topic

Hop To: Select a Forum: Category: Operations -------------------- Digital Cinema Forum Film Handlers' Forum Large Format Forum Ground Level Feature Info, Trailer Attachments & REAL Credit Offsets Category: Community -------------------- Film-Yak Film Handlers' Movie Reviews The Afterlife Bob Maar's Joke-A-Thon Category: Classified -------------------- Equipment and Supplies Wanted/For Sale Help Wanted/Seeking Employment Category: System -------------------- Software Beta Testing Forum

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.