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Topic: Emulsion peeling problem.

William Hooper
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1879
From: Mobile, AL USA
Registered: Jun 99

posted 12-19-2005 03:03 AM

quote: Monte L Fullmer
I've seen some B/W safety prints do the same thing after with age - the emulsion separating from the base.

And after not too long - I think I was the 3rd person to run a nice new-ish print of Audrey Hepburn & Gregory Peck in Rome whatever-it-is: It had been plattered, when the splices at the leaders & tails were pulled off, the emulsion stripped back for a foot in places. The 2nd guy obviously was trying to save what he could, sticking subsequent peels back down with tape, coloring in spots with black marker, etc. It was probably acetate, but could have been polyester.

I've seen it on color acetate too, but B/W reprints have had it the worst.

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Stewart Anderson
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 105
From: Sandy, Utah /United States of America
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 12-19-2005 09:00 AM

Brad - I guess if the film breaks where our fault that would make sence to me. Not only were the acetate films old and brittle, but a lot of them had broken perfs. One of our prints of Indiana Jones had multiple broken perfs every foot. So unless your arguing it was our fault for not basically laminating the whole print with clear splicing tape I still don't see your point.

If your arguing the scratches were our fault, keep in mind that you could count on one hand how many prints have been mildly scratched by us since we opened about six years ago. I find it hard to believe that we would scratch only the classics. Not only that, this would also mean we did it only while building them up and never while running a show.

As I said before we returned those prints in BETTER condition then received. [Smile]

Why is it so hard to belive that an old used print could be in bad condition? [Confused]

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Richard Hamilton
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1341
From: Evansville, Indiana
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 12-19-2005 09:25 AM

quote: Stewart Anderson
One of our prints of Indiana Jones had multiple broken perfs every foot.

And you still ran it? You even had multiple prints?

quote: Stewart Anderson
you could count on one hand how many prints have been mildly scratched by us since we opened about six years ago

You shouldn't be able to count on one finger the number of scratches. Unless you were involved in a horrible accident where you lost all of your fingers, this is unacceptable! [Big Grin]

Even if "mild" whatever that means. A scratch is a scratch

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Stewart Anderson
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 105
From: Sandy, Utah /United States of America
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 12-19-2005 09:30 AM

The scratches that were barely visible on the LESS the five prints that have been scratched at the Commons IN THE LAST SIX YEARS were cause by film cleaners that are no longer in service here. These scratches were barely visible black scratches that disappear for most of the movie. I guess you find this no different from a nice thick green one. I'm including scratches that most projectionists might not see and probably wouldn't count as a "scratch". And I'm not sure if you were aware but they did more then one Indiana Jones movie: Last Crusade, Temple of Doom, and Raders of the Lost Arc. FYI: we did stop running that one print early.

Why is it that in almost every thead I post in at least one person decides to attack me?

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Richard Hamilton
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1341
From: Evansville, Indiana
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 12-19-2005 09:49 AM

Stewart, Nothing personal, I just read the posts and reply. My response would be the same no matter who I am replying to.

And for the record, yes I know there are different Indiana Jones movies. I was born and raised in Indiana!! The way you said it

quote: Stewart Anderson
One of our prints of Indiana Jones

sounds like you have multiple prints! Yes I am a smartass most of the time!

P.S. What happened to the film cleaners?

Rick

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Stewart Anderson
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 105
From: Sandy, Utah /United States of America
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 12-19-2005 09:51 AM

Not sure, they just disappeared over time. I'm not sure who made those (they used brushes, a fan and some sort of static feild whatever that I didn't understand). The name Kinetronics sounds familiar. We still use the Kelmar w/ FilmGaurd.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 12-19-2005 10:35 AM

I guess the bold wasn't clear enough.

quote: Stewart Anderson
I guess if the film breaks where our fault that would make sence to me. Not only were the acetate films old and brittle, but a lot of them had broken perfs.

To clarify, if the films were brittle, you should've lubricated them coupled with a full inspection before running. I will agree that broken perfs are broken perfs. If it was every foot, you should've called the booker and said the print was "unplayable" and put it back in the cans. If there was only occasional perf damage, you should have caught that on your inspections and repaired them. Hence, if you have film breaks, your staff is probably doing something wrong. Make sense?

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Stewart Anderson
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 105
From: Sandy, Utah /United States of America
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 12-19-2005 10:40 AM

Belive me, if we could have got another print to run for the shows that have already been sold we would have. Again, I guess we just had a lot of bad luck with our classics if you guys are getting almost all good/old acetate films.

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Mark J. Marshall
Film God

Posts: 3188
From: New Castle, DE, USA
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 12-19-2005 12:20 PM

[back on topic]
I've seen the dye come off of IB like that. I assumed it was just the base stock starting to shrink as there was also a slight vinegar smell.
[/back on topic]

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Richard Hamilton
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1341
From: Evansville, Indiana
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 12-19-2005 12:27 PM

I'm guessing that the Kinetronics was only on the 8/70 platter. Hard to believe that cleaner caused scratches. IF it did, then it was most likely operator error. It should have been caught also, because that cleaner is mounted in the film path before the film hits the projector.

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Stewart Anderson
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 105
From: Sandy, Utah /United States of America
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 12-19-2005 12:43 PM

Richard - Yep, we had it in the 70, but we also had them on some of the 35s. And that is what I was talking about. These were very rare, very fine, and barely visible black scratches that a lot of the time will completely disappear for a long time and that sometimes made it hard to catch. I remember starting #14 and noticed a fine black scratch in the green band of the first trailer. I removed the cleaner, triple checked everything and the scratch never came back. This was a long time ago, because we stopped using those a long time ago.

Mark - I remember a lot of those prints smelling like vinegar, I never knew exactly what that was.

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted 12-19-2005 01:21 PM

"vinegar syndrome" is when the acetate is breaking down back to a liquid state which emits the acetic acid.

Prints weren't kept in a controlled atmosphere.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 12-19-2005 03:35 PM

Vinegar Syndrome:

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/storage.jhtml?id=0.1.4.11.12&lc=en

quote:
"Vinegar Syndrome" is a term used to describe the chemical reaction that goes on during the deterioration of cellulose triacetate film support. When cellulose triacetate begins to decompose, "deacetylation" occurs and the acetate ion reacts with moisture to form acetic acid producing a vinegar odor when a can is opened. Once the reaction is started, it cannot be stopped. —Information extracted from a paper that was presented at the 1992 AMIA Conference on December 10, 1992, by Dr. Tulsi Ram.

quote:

Molecular Sieve Acid Scavenger
Molecular Sieve is a promising new technology developed by Eastman Kodak Company that has the ability to retard the vinegar syndrome reaction. Simply stated, the inclusion of Molecular Sieve with processed motion picture film in a sealed container has the ability to extend the life of the dye images and film support beyond that which is currently considered normal.

In simple terms, the best advice is to store film cool, dry and vented. If film is in sealed containers, use Molecular Sieves to provide a low humidity "microclimate" and adsorb any acid vapors.

Unfortunately, in the past, many film exchanges were not temperature or humidity controlled, and film was stored in film cases or cans that trapped acid vapors. Sitting in a hot warehouse at 70% to 90% summer humidity is not good for optimum life of the film base or dyes.

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Brian Guckian
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 594
From: Dublin, Ireland
Registered: Apr 2003

posted 12-21-2005 05:49 AM

John, what are your thoughts on what Stephen is describing at the top of this thread? What are the conditions under which the binder will start to break down, and is it related to Vinegar Syndrome in any way (e.g. perhaps a precursor)?

I had exactly the same problem as Stephen with a print of "Man of Aran" (1930s, B/W) a couple of years ago. The emulsion layer was very fragile. I didn't know the age of the stock. I wrote to the BFI about it (it was their print) but sadly never got a response.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 12-21-2005 07:07 AM

I had the same experience with new b/w poly prints during my time in the booth in the late '90s - when unpicking splicing tape, it would often take a chunk of emulsion with it. This didn't seem to affect elements which had been printed in the '80s or earlier, or any acetate prints as far as I can remember.

quote: Brian Guckian
I had exactly the same problem as Stephen with a print of "Man of Aran" (1930s, B/W) a couple of years ago. The emulsion layer was very fragile. I didn't know the age of the stock. I wrote to the BFI about it (it was their print) but sadly never got a response.

If there are any theatres in Ireland which are equipped and certified to run nitrate, do try and show the BFI's nitrate print of Man of Aran. I saw it at the NFT many years ago, and can't remember any other 35mm b/w print that comes anywhere near it for sharpness and tonal range.

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