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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » How low is too low for DTS LED Voltage (Page 2)

 
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3   
Author Topic: How low is too low for DTS LED Voltage
Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

- posted 05-18-2006 04:42 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Bruce Hansen
The reason behind RoHS has to do with the amount of electronics that is thrown away today. There is lead in the solder, and other parts. That lead gets into the ground water, that becomes drinking water. It has been proven that lead causes brain damage in children.
Did you notice that HUGE leap? Lead is bad for human consumption, period...regardless of age. However, there is very little if any evidence of lead in products thrown away causing brain damage. This sort of thing begets the "Envirowackos kind of labeling.

Is is not like the Lead was imported from another planet and is now stuck here...it came from here as have all of the other elements.

The manufacturers can choose for themselves, however if their market with EU countries is worth a redesign of their products. Personally, I have no problem with a soverign country deciding at what level they choose to look out for the environment. As a general rule though, I've found the Enviro-friendly products to perform vastly inferior to enviro-"harmful" products.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 05-18-2006 11:44 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Guttag
However, there is very little if any evidence of lead in products thrown away causing brain damage.
Thats because the stuff has not been in the nation's landfills long enough for us to know exactly how it will affect all of us. It can take many generations for the lead concentrated in the typical landfill to get into underground wells and aquifers.

As for the last part of your statement I somewhat agree although I have used many RoHS compliant semiconductors in things I build with no degradation in performance what so ever. I do dislike the low lead content solder though....

Mark

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 05-19-2006 09:18 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The no lead solder requires higher temperatures and there has been reported a lot higher failure on assembly of many components

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Bruce Hansen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 847
From: Stone Mountain, GA, USA
Registered: Dec 1999

- posted 05-19-2006 05:29 PM      Profile for Bruce Hansen   Email Bruce Hansen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There is an old saying, "better safe than sorry". It is better to prevent a problem, then to try to fix the damage later (if it is fixable). American corporations need to stop their whining, and get it done.

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Richard May
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1057
From: Floral Park, NY USA
Registered: Aug 2004

- posted 05-20-2006 11:42 AM      Profile for Richard May   Email Richard May   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just a little note. I came across a reader yesterday with a voltage of 0.7 volts. Thought it was wrong so I tried another meter. It was right. I ran the film and it ran perfectly. The operators said they have not had a problem with it. I did raise the voltage to 3.5 volts before I left though. It's funny how it can run fine at that low a voltage and other times I found it run badly at 2 volts. Go figure.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

- posted 05-20-2006 11:51 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"There is an old saying, "better safe than sorry". It is better to prevent a problem, then to try to fix the damage later (if it is fixable). American corporations need to stop their whining, and get it done."

The better safe than sorry phrase is wrong more often than right...in fact most advances in society came at very unsafe risks...including this country.

Just because someone like yourself wants to "feel" better about doing "something" does not mean that you are actually improving anything. If the precaution does not come at the expense in the quality of life of today, then go for it...but if you are going to cut into the quality of life for today, you better have some real proof that what you are doing is really going to prevent some catastrophy. In the lead issue, I just don't see it...it is a huge reach.

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Bruce Hansen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 847
From: Stone Mountain, GA, USA
Registered: Dec 1999

- posted 05-21-2006 05:57 PM      Profile for Bruce Hansen   Email Bruce Hansen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Guttag
In the lead issue, I just don't see it...it is a huge reach.

Lead gets into the ground water from discarded electronics. The ground water is used as drinking water. Children drink the water. The lead gets into their blood, and is carried to the brain. With all due respect, I don't understand why you are having such a hard time seeing this rather obvious connection. I also don't understand why you are so against preventing brain damage in children. I cannot figure out any reason to even risk such a thing. You talk about advancements to society, and quality of life, isn't saving children from brain damage an advancement to society, and a betterment to their quality of life?

In the overall manufacturing process, this change is not that big a deal. The EU corporations understood the connection, and made the change. It is too bad that American corporations care more about their profits than about peoples' lives.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 05-21-2006 06:12 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
the other point is if you wish to sell your products in europe then comply with there rules if that market is not woth converting to meet those rules then don't sell but it is there choice as to what rules for products that are admitted to their market as they have to deal with the byproducts later with a much high density of population than north america has

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 05-21-2006 07:26 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Bruce Hansen
With all due respect, I don't understand why you are having such a hard time seeing this rather obvious connection. I also don't understand why you are so against preventing brain damage in children.
I agree Bruce! Funny thing is that he recently had his first kid....The huge quantity of electronics that exists in old landfills today is mind boggling. Any effort of any sort to stop further lead contamination in todays society is a very good thing. As is any effort to clean up yesteryears mess.

Mark

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

- posted 05-21-2006 09:03 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Bruce Hansen
Lead gets into the ground water from discarded electronics. The ground water is used as drinking water.
There is the flaw in the statement...just what quantity of lead is getting into drinking water? After it goes through a typical treatment plant what lead levels are left?

Your arguement just does not hold water. Not even the EPA documents will support your claim (see EPA 812-B-94-002). That is where I have the issue with your whole arguement...that this is some real rampant problem. Current landfills even have membrains to keep lead from seeping in.

You are more apt to get lead contamination from old plumbing that used lead pipes and lead packing. It is not likely the landfill is what is killing you. An older house with lead based paint is also more likely to be harmful to your child than the contaminated water.

As to Gordon's statement...I completely agree...the EU can make what ever requlations it feels is best for it and companies can choose to sell there under their rules or not. I'm definately not saying they shouldn't.

I have not seen enough of the lead-free products, including solder to have an opinion on their performance long or short term to have an opinion on them. However, experience has shown that enviro-friendly products have thus far under-performed their enviro-unfriendly counterparts. So I approach another set of environmental standards with concern as to their performance.

Heavy metals are inhearent in any electronics, including batteries. How they are handled and disposed I think is where the concern should be rather than trying to overcome a superior system. Lead in the water table just isn't the issue that is being made here.

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Sean McKinnon
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1712
From: Peabody Massachusetts
Registered: Sep 2000

- posted 05-21-2006 10:10 PM      Profile for Sean McKinnon   Author's Homepage   Email Sean McKinnon   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"I also don't understand why you are so against preventing brain damage in children."

I love these type of statements, Because Steve would like more proof that EU regs are actually going to do something positive for the environment he gets accused of supporting brain damage in children. I love these logic leaps! Its just like if I said that I wanted more proof that the death penalty worked as a deterrant and someone used that to prove that I wanted Murderer set free!

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 05-22-2006 07:25 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Guttag
There is the flaw in the statement...just what quantity of lead is getting into drinking water? After it goes through a typical treatment plant what lead levels are left?
I guess Steve thinks that everyone is on City Water when in many areas that is simply not true. Where I live many have their own wells.... including yours truely. Wells probably account for 95% of the water in rural areas. As for lead paint contamination ossie I absolutely agree with him that is it probably more dangerous since many are directly exposed to it..... However... in the future water could become the much larger issue if contamination from landfills gets into large underground aquifers... millions of people could be slowly affected not just by lead but by other contaminants as well. Niagra Falls, N.Y. is a good example of vast industrial pollition of underground reserves and there are other towns in the U.S. with very similar problems.

Mark

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

- posted 05-22-2006 08:44 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I also use a well...no problems here...but look at your arguements....it is in the form of "may" ... when in fact it isn't. BWT...we filter our well water...the water we drink is filtered a minimum of 2 times to remove various contaminants and as much as 3-times (more typical of the drinking water). The net result is actually quite good water (and chilled since the last filtration we do is a Brita in the fridge). The filters are changed every 90-days.

BTW...I think the stupid statement about me wanting kids to get brain damage is just beyond over the top. In fact, it goes to show to the credibility of the person that makes such a statement. They work with inaccurate information and then draw completely stupid conclusions.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 05-22-2006 06:56 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Guttag
but look at your arguements....it is in the form of "may" ... when in fact it isn't.
I wouldn't consider either Niagra Falls or that town in Alabama that has been contaminated by a nearby government installation as "Mays"... they are more like definately are.... There are other ones too. Alot of people living in these towns have become VERY sick, many have died... these are not "Mays" they are definates.

I'm not too paranoid about the well water around here. Its been tested twice in a lab in two years and fortunately is very pure. It tastes great and is alot better than the water I had in Salt Lake City proper. No need for filters although I do have them on the line to the kitchen just to help reduce the calcium going to the washing machine and dish washer.

An interesting study on the effects if lead in the soil was done by Atlanta Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry. Its an interesting paper with alot of hard facts.... Here No "Mays" here either.

A bunch of links to data and info on the Love canal issue at Niagra Falls is Here no "mays" will be found.

Any town or area that had smelters operating at one time or another is also at high risk(not a "May") for large amounts of lead in the ground water and below.

Mark

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Bruce Hansen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 847
From: Stone Mountain, GA, USA
Registered: Dec 1999

- posted 05-22-2006 09:48 PM      Profile for Bruce Hansen   Email Bruce Hansen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve,

The fact that you have to result to name calling says that you cannot find a way to contradict what I have written. Let me tell you what is STUPID; waiting till we see the disastrous effects of this problem before we do something about it. That would not only be incredibly stupid but short sited as well. I hear a lot of whining, but you seem to be very short on facts, so please answer this question: why do you think that our children should be used as ginny pigs just to save greedy corporations a few bucks?

If you are in a client's booth and your hear a lot of noise coming from an intermittent, do you check the oil level, and put in oil if it needs it? Or do you just let it fail before you do something about it, costing your client a lot more money? We are talking about preventive maintenance. When you see the sign of a future problem, you do something about it NOW, in order to save money, or even peoples lives tomorrow.

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