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Author Topic: Sound Question what is X curve?
Christopher Seo
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 530
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-09-2006 04:00 PM      Profile for Christopher Seo   Email Christopher Seo   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
SMPTE 202M-1998, Table 1, shows greater than -3 dB tolerance outside the 100 Hz - 8 kHz range. It does not state whether this is simply for the benefit of older loudspeakers.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-09-2006 05:04 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Christopher, it is not a rough guide but a well defined standard. I hope you don't tune rooms because your responses show that you clearly don't know what you are doing.

For your reference...most speakers have graphs that show closer to +/- 5 dB of range and most manufacturers list their range at the -10dB down points.

In reality...the reponse deliberately opens up outside of the vocal range. How close the HF horn comes to the screen will have a dramatic effect on its HF response and the curve allows for that. In fact, I want to say that it was a more recent inclusion to alter the curve for above 10KHz. The +3 upper limit is uniform from 40Hz to 16KHz. The lower limit does vary based on actual speaker performance. Furthermore, with the optical subwoofer rolling in at about 50Hz - 100Hz (installer settable), the response of the stage channel need not be ruler flat down to 20Hz.

I have always questioned that cinema stage speakers should have their 3dB down point at 40Hz but optical subwoofers should come in at 50Hz.

In any event, if you know how to interpret the X curve and how speakers actually perform...it is pretty straight forward.

You seem to be looking for some new magical sound physics or futuristic sound measurement method that will make it all cut and dried....sorry to say...that day is not here yet nor does it look like it is around the corner.

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
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 - posted 10-09-2006 07:16 PM      Profile for Tim Reed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm of the less-is-more philosophy. Pull down the peaks, little or no boosts.

Too many people try to use EQ to make the speaker compensate for deficiencies in the room, instead of insuring the room matches acoustically to begin with (be it in design or remodelling/construction). There is only so much you can do before you start getting noticeable phase distortion and coloration.

Btw, when did it stop being called the Academy curve... or are we talking about something that I've completely missed during my time out?

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Robert Minichino
Master Film Handler

Posts: 350
From: Haskell, NJ, USA
Registered: Dec 2005


 - posted 10-09-2006 08:14 PM      Profile for Robert Minichino   Author's Homepage   Email Robert Minichino   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
From my understanding, the X curve is the one with the gentle 3dB/oct roll-off starting at 2k, the Academy curve is the pre-NR one that cuts the highs and lows rather sharply.

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Jarrad Salmon
Film Handler

Posts: 25
From: Baulkham Hills, NSW, Australia
Registered: May 2006


 - posted 10-09-2006 11:49 PM      Profile for Jarrad Salmon   Email Jarrad Salmon   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
+-3 db which is the norm for rateing most audio devices
Quite right, +-3dB is the standard. Still a 6dB range is pretty big, especially at frequencies in the presence range. The amount of speakers that I have compared side by side in this scale blows me away. You can always hear the difference even if they are showing the same response.

Please try not to focus on minor details like above

I agree that the idea of an x curve is purely a starting point in a rooms EQ. Keep in mind this test is completed with a RTA mic in a specific position in the empty cinema. If you move the mic the response will change, change the temperature, humidity, the amount of people the response will change.

There will never be a perfect tuning method. Just methods to use as a reference point.

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Cameron Glendinning
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: West Ryde, Sydney, NSW Australia
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 - posted 10-10-2006 04:07 AM      Profile for Cameron Glendinning   Email Cameron Glendinning   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ok, Over the last 2 weeks I have asked a few people with life time worth of experience in the professional audio their opionon on the x curve.

So far on the phone I have talked to

1. John Bernet founder of Lenard Audio. Who were the world pioneers of the high power amp. When the rest of the world was making amps in the 10's of watts he was producing and selling amps in the hundreds of watts.

2.Fred Pickering, Who for decades worked in TV sound at Australias ABC Television. Fred is the sort of person who use to send the sound recordists to the school of the blind as work experience, he was the head of sound there when the now famous Neville Theele was the head of video tape there ect.

3.Richard Prittle has been contacted, designer of the Aussie Monitor Cinema Speaker range and even designed Dolby mixing suites ect

4. I am also keen to talk to a person who mixes movies for a living to see if they actually try to compensate for them ect.

One of the above is a friend of Tom Holmen and ultimatly his opinion will be asked as well.

First to respond is John Bernett who has given permission for this email to be reproduced here on Film-Tech. He has been researching the history of it.

The mysterious x curve

A variation of the x curve was originally described as the Academy curve, which came about as a convoluted entanglement from many different directions.

First we must understand that cinema evolved before radio and Television. Cinema was globally successful as the number one entertainment for 20 years before electronics evolved to enable sound systems to exist. This is the primary reason sound has always taken second place. We must also remember that the cinema industry has had an obsession that any new technology had to be backwards compatible, meaning that it was and still is contained by its past. This not right or wrong but simply evolution.

Sound appeared as a miraculous achievement and was applied when electronic technology was unfolding so rapidly that there wasn't time to for cinema to grow with it. Many of the decisions at that time were done with the best intentions to achieve consistency.

Before sound systems existed the largest auditoriums were cathedrals and the only way to increase the sound level was by controlled reflection of reverberation. Reverberation was therefore essential to maintain consistent sound level but it came at the cost of decreasing articulation and intelligibility. Early acousticians began with an imaginary ideal as a 100% reverberant environment enabling sound to be heard at the same level throughout the auditorium or cathedral.

Any sound absorbed was regarded as a loss described as 'room loss'. The aim was to provide minimum 'room loss' with zero loss of intelligibility which of course is a contradiction. Any reverberation reduces intelligibility. Therefore what evolved was the imagined ideal of correct reverberation. That is, reflective area around the stage of short distances opening up to larger area of longer distances. However this is not the case with cinemas because of the large screen.

It was noticed that the worst effect on destroying intelligibility was hearing distinct echoes reflected from walls and ceiling at large distances apart, compared to reverberation reflected from walls and ceiling at short distances (e.g. bathroom).

Lets compare a small and large reverberant auditorium made from the exactly the same building materials, and we fire a cap gun. Assume a period of 1 second in which sound will travel 1125ft (344m). In the small auditorium average distance between the walls and ceiling is closer, compared to a large auditorium. Therefore in one second the sound from the cap gun will strike the walls and ceiling more often in a small room compared to a larger room. This is described as 'Mean free path' or 'Mean free time'.

Each time sound strikes a wall or ceiling a % will be absorbed and a % will be reflected and so on and so on. Therefore in a small auditorium -more- sound will be absorbed by the walls and ceiling simply because sound strikes the walls and ceiling more often compared to a large auditorium, for the same period of time. However in most auditoriums the high frequencies are more readily absorbed that the low frequencies. Which means that in larger auditorium the echo reverberant sound will appear to be brighter.

The second explanation for why the Academy curve exists is to do with noise masking.

The first sound tracks on film were basic optical and the technology that existed at that time could only enable 2K - 6K max to be obtained. The first problem was the very noisy hiss from the optical track and the crude valve pre-amplifiers. Putting a filter at the output of the pre-amplifier reduced the hiss but also reduced the small amount of high frequencies information available from the film stock. The simplest solution was to boost the high frequencies when recording and allow the noise reduction filter to give a close to flat response again when played back. This became called the 'Academy Characteristic'.

The 3rd explanation for why the Academy curve exists is to do with speaker horns.

The early speaker systems consisted of a 12in or 15in speaker for the low frequencies and a compression driver and horn for the higher frequencies. Crossover at approx 700Hz which mostly consisted of a simple capacitor only. The compression driver and horn were approx 20dB (50 - 100 times) more efficient that the 12in or 15in speaker. The understanding how to correctly equalize both components so as to sound flat was very difficult as only a very few laboratory had the basic and crude test equipment to calibrate and acoustically align the drivers. The majority were aligned by ear and this was always in favor of the upper end of the voice. Also valve amps at that time were mostly 30 Watts or less. Often the horn was left almost at full efficiency so it could be loud enough for lost of people to hear with only a small amplifier power. The Academy curve also helped equalize the extreme level of the horn.

Conclusion.

We have to understand we are now living in a new century. Sound system power and fidelity is now unlimited, but unfortunately the will to act decisively is limited. Digital formats allow for a flat response 20Hz - 20KHz with almost zero noise. Electronic amplifying circuitry is now virtually silent. Auditoriums can now be made close to anechoic with almost zero reverberation and echoes. There is no longer any need for the Academy x curve or any external equalizing curves in the new millennia. We now have the technology and engineering skill and un-limited building resources to make every commercial cinema acoustically free of echoes and reverberation at all frequencies. Traditional cinema now belongs at home as 'Home cinema' where it can be trivialized and de-valued to any level we wish. But for the commercial cinemas survive in the new century they will have to be fully digital and provide the highest level of projected entertainment for mass audience. But to do so the industry has to let go of the past and invest in the technology that will enable it to maintain its position as the leader of mass entertainment

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

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From: Toronto Ontario Canada
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 - posted 10-10-2006 02:59 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
With all due respect to Mr Bennet he has done some poor research
The X curve and the Academy Curve are two very different items and very different in there function and amounts
The academy curve was a pre emphisis (much like the RIAA premphasis) and had nothing to do with room accoustics
The X curve is the response of the B chain portion of the system

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-10-2006 06:09 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
To back up Gordon on this one...yes...the description just given by Mr. Bennet seems to talk about the evolution of the Academy characteristic curve as measured in several large cinemas years ago which lead to the pre-emphasis mentioned by Gordon (some Dolby papers actually show how the sound moves from flat to the Academy curve)...

The X-curve refers to an SMPTE standard on how to tune a room to ACHIEVE A FLAT response. To think the sound is actually being rolled off is a misinterpretation of what is going on. The reason for the range also has to do with not over taxing a driver or the electronics.

The person that brought the tid bit about the X-Curve being for a tuning of the room at a particular mic location just showed everyone that he did not read the document he was providing comment on...actually the document decribes a multiplexed microphone system with spacial temporal averaging so that the bulk of the listening area is properly measured (see A4 through A8). Now the standard does advise on single mic placement but doesn't recommend it.

The goal of the standard is to standardize the measurement method for uniform and predictable results and also provide the best results.

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Cameron Glendinning
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: West Ryde, Sydney, NSW Australia
Registered: Dec 2005


 - posted 10-10-2006 07:13 PM      Profile for Cameron Glendinning   Email Cameron Glendinning   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gordon, Johns research is not finished and he is very interested in learning more, your and other Film Tech members input is very useful to help demystify what appears to others, who do not work in cinema industry, an unusual practice.

Personally in the 90's when I was building speakers with wings/ baffles / modifying cinema speaker systems, I had the opportunity to get our 3 different service providers to each do an eq of the same auditorium, with very different results. So I have a good idea of the acceptable variation within the curves. It is not subtle. The way I deal with it was to only use the company that had provided the best and most natural sounding results.

Having worked in over 50 cinemas so far, I can also say that most auditoriums do not have good acoustics. With Digital Cinema promising uncompressed or IMAX quality audio, should cinemas start copying their dampened / dead auditoriums, Do IMAX use the X curve? What could be done to make it more consistent? if anything?

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
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 - posted 10-10-2006 08:00 PM      Profile for Tim Reed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Gordon McLeod
The academy curve was a pre emphisis (much like the RIAA premphasis) and had nothing to do with room accoustics
The X curve is the response of the B chain portion of the system

Forgive my cobwebs, guys. I've spent the last 5 years putting much of this out of my mind - thinking I would never return to service. It is critical that I get this right. Seems I remember the slit-loss correction being called Academy correction (?), but I could've sworn the old CP-50 manuals also referred to the B-chain rolloff at 3dB per octave above 2kHz as the Academy curve. [Confused]

Gordon and Steve... is there anything in recent Dolby manuals that outlines this, perhaps? Thanks! I've got some books to crack.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-10-2006 08:54 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tim,

Download the CP50 manual from this site...read chapter 3 for the Acadmey cuve stuff.

Then download the Technical Guidelines manual from this site and you can see ANSI/SMPTE 202M...it isn't the most current but it is going to let you see what the X-Curve is all about. Also the N-Curve which relates back to the Academy curve.

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

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From: Northampton, PA
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 - posted 10-10-2006 09:19 PM      Profile for Tim Reed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Roger that, Steve. Thanks!

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

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From: Toronto Ontario Canada
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 - posted 10-11-2006 06:19 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Also there is some matereial in the paper on Quintaphonic on room equalization in a old SMPTE jurnal

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Edward Jurich
Master Film Handler

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From: Las Vegas USA
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted 10-11-2006 11:01 AM      Profile for Edward Jurich   Email Edward Jurich   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
For two or three years I ran summer classic films in an old 2000 seat movie palace. The films ranged from the 40's to the 60's. We had an EQ and when a new feature came in I would pick a middle reel and run sound tests. In order to be able to understand speech and have a good sound, the EQ had different settings for each feature.
The one thing that stayed pretty constant was a big dip between about 200HZ and 2KHZ. If you didn't put that dip in the sound was muffled.
The first couple years we used an old original mono photocell pickup requiring voltage. The third year we put in a modern stereo cell so we could run stereo on West Side Story. Even with the newer pickup, the dip still had to be put in.

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

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From: Northampton, PA
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 - posted 10-11-2006 07:50 PM      Profile for Tim Reed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gordon, is that online anywhere?

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