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Author Topic: DTS to sell off pro cinema division Joel N. Weber II Expert Film Handler Posts: 115 From: Somerville, MA, USA Registered: Dec 2005 posted 02-26-2007 11:45 PM                     Patents typically expire after about 17 years, which ought to make the DTS patents expire sometime around 2010, after which there might be legal players made by someone other than DTS. Possibly even mostly as generic software that runs on a generic PC with a nice soundcard, although there also needs to be some way for that generic PC to read the timecode. 17 years is a huge amount of time when Moore's Law says that the cost of processing power typically drops in half every 18 months.  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 02-27-2007 04:01 PM                     I'm not so sure about the 17 year mark, at least here in the United States. Duration of patent protection also tends to vary from one industry to the next. The time span could be longer or shorter. For example, some drugs lose patent protection in as little as 5 years. If the 17 year mark is correct, that would only apply to the APT-X100 codec used to encode DTS theatrical audio tracks. The DTS CAC codec was developed years later and has been revised a number of times. The DTS-HD audio formats are pretty new. They do have a backward compatible DTS-CAC core subset to allow use of existing DTS decoders, but the "HD" portions are new. The real problem with APT-X100 and the DTS Theatrical format is the growing irrelevance of it. Who's going to care once the patent expires? It, and other low bitrate, lossy compressed surround formats are becoming obsolescent in both theatrical movie presentation and home theater applications. Higher bitrate audio, either lossless compressed or uncompressed, is beginning to take over the field. Both Dolby and DTS see the big threat. They're trying to maintain relevance with their Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD formats. However, little can be done to stop a studio from just using "plain" LPCM 5.1 instead. I don't think any digital cinema releases have been encoded in any specific Dolby or DTS flavored format. I think they've all been LPCM.  |  IP: Logged Dustin Mitchell Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1865 From: Mondovi, WI, USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 02-27-2007 07:27 PM                     Question, wouldn't the encoding/decoding software that DTS uses be covered by copyright law and not patent law?  |  IP: Logged Mike Blakesley Film God Posts: 12767 From: Forsyth, Montana Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-27-2007 07:28 PM                        University of Washington Q&A page on patents How long does a patent last? Utility patents have a life span of 20 years from the earliest filing date of a non-provisional application. Plant and design patents have a life span of 14 years. With the exception of some pharmaceutical patents, only a special act of Congress can extend a patent beyond its term. Utility patents may expire before their term if their owners do not pay the maintenance fees due 3.5, 7.5, and 11.5 years into the term. Definition: Utility patents cover new processes, machines, manufactured articles, and chemical compositions. Copyright provides writers, artists, and other creators of expressive works the right to control how their works are used. This right covers the expression of these works, and not the ideas they contain. A work is protected by copyright the moment it is set down in tangible form. Copyrights can be registered with the Library of Congress's Copyright Office, but there is no requirement to register any copyright.  |  IP: Logged Dustin Mitchell Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1865 From: Mondovi, WI, USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 02-27-2007 08:18 PM                     *fires up Microsoft Word to double check* Yeah, I thought I heard it in a computer class before but software is copyrighted, not patented, since technically speaking it is 'written'.  |  IP: Logged Mike Blakesley Film God Posts: 12767 From: Forsyth, Montana Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-27-2007 08:32 PM                        So the DTS process would be patented, but the actual code is copyrighted, eh?  |  IP: Logged Dustin Mitchell Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1865 From: Mondovi, WI, USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 02-27-2007 08:48 PM                     If I understand it correctly, yes.  |  IP: Logged Joel N. Weber II Expert Film Handler Posts: 115 From: Somerville, MA, USA Registered: Dec 2005 posted 02-27-2007 09:16 PM                     The patent(s) presumably cover the concept of decoding an audio stream in the DTS format, whereas the copyright would cover the exact contents of the ROM chips in a DTS-6 player. So if someone who understood the generalities of how the DTS encoding works were to write a new piece of software which decodes the same format, that could infringe on the patents if they're still in force, but it wouldn't infringe on the copyright (assuming the author of this new software hadn't been reading DTS's software). Copyright presumably has the effect that it will be many, many decades before someone other than DTS can legally make copies of DTS's ROM chips without getting DTS's permission first. In theory, the patent system was supposed to require that the patent disclose enough information that someone could read the patent to find out everything they'd need to know to write new software that would decode the soundtracks, but in practice, the government employees who approve the patent applications are encouraged to approve as many applications as possible, and patent lawyers tend to minimize how much information they disclose.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 02-28-2007 09:09 AM                     The purpose of a patent is to give the inventor a legal monopoly of their idea/design for a period of time such that it encourages profitability in invention. The 17-year (and I guess it has been upped to 20-years) was designed such that after that period of time, it would become stale technology. Having an indefinate amount of patent protection could actually stiffle invention since one would be constantly trying to avoid stepping on an ancient patent while trying to improve and bring about changes to old ideas. In our industry look at Dolby-A and Dolby-SR...they fit the time frame really well...Dolby-A's patent held them until really something better was going to come out anyway....Dolby-SR....now with digital audio...Dolby-SR has been rendered just about completely obsolete right about the 17-20-year mark. As to writing software...yes it falls into copyright protection. A piece of software can not infringe on a patent...that is, if DTS has patents on their hardware designs...one could write software to work on DTS' hardware and there is not patent issue. Now if one were to use DTS' code to do it, it would violate their copyright. As anyone that has coded knows...there are many ways to accomplish the same thing...some ways are better than others. In fact, when I was in college, we had to write software that would mimick the BIOS and DOS interrupts of a PC. All the documentation you were provided is what the DOS (or BIOS) command was supposed to do and what is supposed to be returned to the registers/stack when done. I assure you, we had no access to Microsoft's source code! We wrote in Assembly language and they worked well though I doubt any were written identically though all did the (or were supposed to do) exactly the same thing.  |  IP: Logged Robert Minichino Master Film Handler Posts: 350 From: Haskell, NJ, USA Registered: Dec 2005 posted 02-28-2007 10:39 AM                        Unfortunately (IMO) software and algorithms (along with business methods!) can now be patented and it is possible for software to infringe on patents. If DTS's decompression method is patent-encumbered then any software that decodes DTS discs is infringing.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 02-28-2007 11:53 AM                     It may be your HO but software that works with patented equipment, including those that require software to fully function, is NOT patent infringement. Software is software, it is not patentable...it is copyrightable...which is MUCH stronger...that is Life of the author or owning entity plus some ungodly amount of time. If you've got better code go for it. Since DTS and other hardware manufacturers rarely charge for their software, there is going to be little market for profit. When is the last time you paid for DTS or Dolby software to operate their products? Their goal is to proliferate their products.  |  IP: Logged Robert Minichino Master Film Handler Posts: 350 From: Haskell, NJ, USA Registered: Dec 2005 posted 02-28-2007 01:58 PM                        While software that works with patented equipment isn't infringing in itself, methods and algorithms used in the software itself could be patented (separately from the equipment) and thus protected. Patents are a much stronger, but more time-limited protection of an idea, and cover any implementation of that idea. Copyrights only pertain to a specific implementation. Here's some information on software patents: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_patent http://lpf.ai.mit.edu/Patents/patents.html http://www.bitlaw.com/software-patent/history.html EDIT: Hardware is also copyrightable, especially printed-circuit layouts, IC masks, schematics, etc.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 02-28-2007 08:11 PM                     Hardware is not in and of itself copyrighted...it is the LAYOUT that is copyrighted. The circuit itself can be patented. The layout is considered artwork and thus copyrightable just like a painting.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-28-2007 08:14 PM                     And change the layout changes the artwork and is such a new artwork  |  IP: Logged David Stambaugh Film God Posts: 4021 From: Eugene, Oregon Registered: Jan 2002 posted 02-28-2007 08:25 PM                        Wikipedia on the subject of software patents EDIT: Steve retracted his challenge just about the time I posted this.  |  IP: Logged

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