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Topic: Fim loading the night before

Louis Bornwasser
Film God

Posts: 4441
From: prospect ky usa
Registered: Mar 2005

posted 09-25-2007 09:57 AM

Robert: you are exactly right.

Expectations are low therefore the result is low.

Other than dirt buildup, there is no practical difference if film is threaded "early." Compared to the wear of threading each and every 20 minute reel, ewuipment now gets a free ride. The exception is the "set" film gets from being stopped in the gate/rollers. Evenso this only affects the leader. Louis

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Gerard S. Cohen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 975
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 09-25-2007 12:34 PM

In my experience, management decreed the projectors be threaded up the night before when they were pressuring the unions to replace their projectionists with non-union employees hired by the managers at much lower wages.

They were trying to establish a pattern that anyone could start a show in the face of a work stoppage, and that "projectionists" were obsolete. Some chains forbad the term itself as they combined the duties of janitor, usher, porter, doorman, concessionist and booth attendant into one interchangeable minimum-wage (or less) employee.

It was easier to teach the rookie to push the start button than to teach him or her to thread up--many never learned to even set the intermittant. This enabled chains, managers and assistants to pretend projection was not a skilled craft and led the downward slide to mediocrity.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 09-25-2007 02:43 PM

quote: Phil Blake
Before I thread for the next day I always like to run the machines for a 5 minute "warm up" before threading.

This is the absolute best reason I've read here for not threading up the night before... Indeed running the machine for a few minutes is a huge advantage to getting extra life out of the intermittent, bushings and gear train. Most movements oil drains back out of the parts that require them and pre-running the machine places oil back where its needed most... same for an all oil bath machine... for cushioning on the star/cam radius and on the cam pin as well as every gear pair.

Also its best to leave the cam pin just disengauged from the star's slot at start up... this allows almost one complete revolutuon of the gear train and more time for the mechanism to come up to speed before a load is placed on the pin and star itself.

quote: Gerard S. Cohen
This enabled chains, managers and assistants to pretend projection was not a skilled craft and led the downward slide to mediocrity.

Sorry Gerard... not totally true... while there were many very good IA locals some locations locals were so bad that in many cases the rookies were way beyond the operators capability.

Mark

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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 09-25-2007 05:40 PM

Forgive the ignorance here, but what difference does it make whether the machine runs with or without film? I have never heard of this before.

(I am NOT advocating threading the night before, I just never heard of this as one of the reasons for not doing so.)

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 09-25-2007 08:17 PM

This has been discussed before...but the jist is...lubricants are stiffer when cold and they tend to pool at the bottom...which means that all of the bearings, gears and even the intermittent are not evenly lubricated after things have been at rest for a long while (overnight as opposed to between shows/reels).

Spin a projector over by hand at the beginning of the day...run the projector for 5-10minutes and then spin it over by hand...you should almost always feel it spin more fee after it has warmed up.

Having the film in the projector makes everything work harder (wear more) when it isn't at operating temp.

Steve

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Richard May
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1057
From: Floral Park, NY USA
Registered: Aug 2004

posted 09-25-2007 09:20 PM

I definitely have done that and do notice that it runs smoother after warming up. I'm just wondering whether it really matters. I'm not talking about threading the night before because I never do that. I have been at the same theater for more than 17 years. We never warm up the machines. I have never had to replace any bearings related to the drive train. The intermittents are still running perfectly too. So I'm not sure it's such a big deal to run the machines before the first show.

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Tim Rectanus
Film Handler

Posts: 51
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Registered: Jul 2005

posted 09-25-2007 09:43 PM

My question now is not what the problems are with threading up the night before but what the advantages are. I mean, are you really getting there late enough that you don't have 3-7 minutes to thread up the projector? That is the only decent reason I could think of for threading the night before, time. I think we all try to get things done with the least amount of work and energy but that is a new kind of lazy. Maybe it is different with other systems but our SR takes very little time to actaully thread up.

In case you couldn't tell, we don't thread up the night before at my theatre. In the morning we test the moving parts of the projectors (FFs, Dowsers, Rotors, and the such) using the cleaning mode and run it for a bit to get things warmed up, without film.

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Bryan M. Montgomery
Film Handler

Posts: 47
From: Chillicothe, Ohio
Registered: Jul 2007

posted 09-25-2007 10:06 PM

No Chris, I dont trust them, I train them the very best I can, given the very limited time the "people downstairs" give me, and off they go. The budget and the operators willingness to do a good job dictate what happens when they run the booth, and we have very little of either, so I try to limit the damage they can do, and one way is to not allow overnight threading.

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 09-25-2007 10:14 PM

quote: Richard May
I definitely have done that and do notice that it runs smoother after warming up. I'm just wondering whether it really matters.

I don't run the machine before threading, but it would be a simple matter to flip on the motor switch, then go move the platter ring, thread the film past the projector and back to the platter, and then shut off the motor and thread the projector. It's not a five minute warmup but it would be better than nothing. I agree with Steve about how the machine runs better after warming up.

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Richard May
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1057
From: Floral Park, NY USA
Registered: Aug 2004

posted 09-25-2007 10:21 PM

I'm not saying they don't run smoother. I did say that they do. My point is, I don't think any wear is being caused by not warming them up before threading.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 09-25-2007 10:43 PM

quote: Richard May
I don't think any wear is being caused by not warming them up before threading.

Actually alot of wear is happenning at that time if threaded with film. Just like starting your car on a cold morning and putting it in drive about 5 seconds later then another 5 seconds later going 60 mph down the freeway with out the temp gauge having budged... the lubricants haven't had a chance to begin working(unless you're using syntthetics)! If you know know of one have a local mechanical engineer calculate the tons of force that are on the cam pin when its moving film vs. when its not vs. the added cushion of oil on both the pin and radius, ditto for the bushings. Oil makes a huge difference.

What I generally go by is running something like an X-L for a long enough time for oil to come out the back side overflow hole on the movement as sufficient time to re-distribute the lubricant, typically a minute or two. On a DP-70 until the oil overflow pipe on the movement is flowing, etc. A Century only need run for 30 seconds or so to distribute what little oil there is. In the latter instance synthetic oil can double the life span of a Century movement. With Phillips FP-20 and similar(Ballantyne) there is no real need to pre-run the machine because all the precision stuff is totally submerged in oil.

The most important thing is that a cushion of oil be present on all moving parts before the added force of pulling film begins.

Mark

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Chris Slycord
Film God

Posts: 2986
From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 09-25-2007 11:18 PM

The only reason to do this would be it saving one of time or money. It does neither from what I see.

If I'm threading because in the morning I'll be tired and won't want to thread, I'll be tired because I stayed late threading.

If it's to save $ paying the morning guy, the savings is offset by the extra hours spent by the operator the night before.

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John Wilson
Film God

Posts: 5438
From: Sydney, Australia.
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 09-25-2007 11:59 PM

quote: Tim Rectanus
I mean, are you really getting there late enough that you don't have 3-7 minutes to thread up the projector? That is the only decent reason I could think of for threading the night before, time.

But multiply those 3-7 minutes by the amount of screens and you can start to see it eats up a fair amount of time. With ten screens you now have spent the better part of 40 minutes threading up when it could have been done as they finish the night before leaving you time to do some maintenance around the cinema.

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Thomas Pitt
Master Film Handler

Posts: 266
From: Leeds, West Yorkshire, UK
Registered: May 2007

posted 09-26-2007 12:24 AM

What about putting 5 minutes worth of 'scrap' film (old trailers, scratched movie film, threading leader etc) on the beginning of the platter? Then you could thread it up the previous night, and the only parts of the film exposed to airborne dust and dirt would be the scrap film.

Then, simply program the start timer 5 minutes before the advertised feature start time. This will allow all this scrap film to run through, and get the projector warmed up. Use an additional cue so that the 'show' doesn't start (lamp strike, douser open, auditorium lighting down) until the head leader is going through the projector, then it will run the show as normal.

What are your thoughts on this suggestion?

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted 09-26-2007 12:41 AM

quote: Thomas Pitt
What about putting 5 minutes worth of 'scrap' film (old trailers, scratched movie film, threading leader etc) on the beginning of the platter?

When I used to work for MANN THEATRES back in the early 80's, we used to have a 5 min chunk of film on the beginning that was called 'canned presentations' - all it was was music with a swirly imagry that would be attached and presented before feature..and we would start our performances 5min early for this added presentation...and what a pain to remember to start our sets early.

(Also, if running machines empty for warmup, please open your intermittent shoe assembly, so that the metal to metal contact aint wearing out both the shoe and sprocket surfaces).

I've never been a fan for lacing up the night before for many reasons previously mentioned-both mechanical and human reasons. The human side, esp with dealing with high school kids, is that if you lace up a house the night before and the first start of the next day goes wrong, you know where the finger can be easilly pointed and who would rat on the mgr for this mistart..

Leave a machine empty and the finger has nowhere to be pointed at except at the booth clown who laced the machine.

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