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Author Topic: 3D Ghosting Mark J. Marshall Film God Posts: 3188 From: New Castle, DE, USA Registered: Aug 2002 posted 10-22-2007 11:57 AM                    Interesting thread. This doesn't sound like he's describing the alternating eyes / latency problem that I've noticed on every single projector digital 3D setup I've seen since he's only seeing it in one theater out of five. That problem is most noticeable during scenes with a lot of motion, and very difficult to see during scenes with little to no motion. Larry, you said you have a CP2000, Doremi, and Real D system. Are the other four identical to this one in every way? Also have you noticed any problems with any other 3D movies in that house before?  |  IP: Logged Larry Zuverink Film Handler Posts: 98 From: Caledonia, MI, USA Registered: Nov 2002 posted 10-22-2007 02:55 PM                     Yes, They are all the same. These are all new installs. However we have been going back and checking the other screens and they all show the problem but to a much less degree. We are going to check out a Harkness screen with the same system that has been installed for a while. Ken, This theatre we are noticing the problem with is also off center. I noticed you said you have a Karkness screen. Does Harkness make a specific screen for real D or are all their screens real D approved.  |  IP: Logged Josh Kirkhart Expert Film Handler Posts: 165 From: Austin/Houston, TX, USA Registered: Nov 2001 posted 10-22-2007 04:55 PM                     Swap the Z-screen and real d box from another install seperatly. Obviously disconnect power to anything when servicing equipment and never do anything you are uncomfortable or unsure about. Have seen this issue on other occasions, it either has to do with the settings in the reald box or the z-screen. The setting used in your setup are basic default settings in the unit. Your Christie tech can access those settings and verify. If the swap works, make note of the affected equipment with serial of bad unit and get tech to request replacement. Real d will have one out real quick. Dont hesitate to cycle power on the reald box.  |  IP: Logged David Zylstra Master Film Handler Posts: 432 From: Novi, MI, USA Registered: Mar 2007 posted 10-22-2007 07:17 PM                     quote: Larry Zuverink I noticed you said you have a Karkness screen. Does Harkness make a specific screen for real D or are all their screens real D approved. When we put our 2 RealD screens in the only "recommended" silver screens were from MDI or Harkness - we had to make sure we specified it was for RealD on the order . . . . . . we used Harkness for 2 reasons - some MDI screens for Chicken Little were visibly mottled and our other existing screens are Harkness (we could have gotten an MDI screen quicker) . . . . . Thinking back I seem to recall a conversation I had with RealD about the MDI screen being slightly better (it's been pretty long), but I can't remember what the differences were.  |  IP: Logged Ken Lackner Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1907 From: Atlanta, GA, USA Registered: Sep 2001 posted 10-22-2007 07:42 PM                     Larry, Harkness only has one Silver Screen...the Spectral 240. Real D, as I'm sure you know, does require a silver screen, and they do recommend this one. (I spoke with them today.) The rep that I spoke with said that the ghosting is most likely specific to the content. I went back to one of my MTR locations today. I did notice the ghosting during the Disney 3D Test Frame, the Pumkin, and certain scenes of NBC. But I played the 2-minute MTR test clip that was still on the server, and there were no problems with that. Nor were there any issues with the Journey 3D rating tag or trailer. She said that the ghosting is most noticealbe with light content on a dark backround, and my tests would seem to agree.  |  IP: Logged Larry Zuverink Film Handler Posts: 98 From: Caledonia, MI, USA Registered: Nov 2002 posted 10-24-2007 12:04 PM                     Confirmed ghosting to some degree on the Harkenss screen as well. The one that was really bad was improved by moving the projector to the center window but is still not what I would call acceptable. I'm still trying to figure out if ghosting is inherent to Doremi players.  |  IP: Logged David Zylstra Master Film Handler Posts: 432 From: Novi, MI, USA Registered: Mar 2007 posted 10-24-2007 03:04 PM                     From Ken's comments, your observations and what I know about the different 3D systems I'd say it is a combination of content, projection angle and the inherent bleed through of the polarizers . . . . . . I don't think it's the DoReMi, but you never know . . . . . Larry - you are welcome to come my way and look Novi's copy of NBC to see how it compares to yours (I can't see any ghosting on it, but I've only watched the first few minutes trying to see if it shows the ghosting) Does the ghosting change depending on viewing angle? (just a thought)  |  IP: Logged Ken Lackner Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1907 From: Atlanta, GA, USA Registered: Sep 2001 posted 10-24-2007 07:47 PM                     I've noticed the same amount of ghosting on a Dolby and a Doremi, so it's not the player. Both sites have the projector off-center by about six feet. One has the projector angled (because lens shift alone was not enough to center the image), one does not. They both have roughly the same ghosting. I've settled on the content as the cause and although it is noticeable to me, it is not too objectionable.  |  IP: Logged Larry Zuverink Film Handler Posts: 98 From: Caledonia, MI, USA Registered: Nov 2002 posted 10-29-2007 12:43 PM                     quote: David Zylstra I'd say it is a combination of content, projection angle and the inherent bleed through of the polarizers So what is a acceptable level of bleed through of the polarizers? Is there a SMPTE standard and how is it measured?  |  IP: Logged David Zylstra Master Film Handler Posts: 432 From: Novi, MI, USA Registered: Mar 2007 posted 10-29-2007 01:14 PM                     Therein lies the issue . . . . . . no standards yet . . . . . DCI added 3D to the spec earlier this year to work towards a single inventory file (which puts the "ghost busting" responsibility on the hardware instead of source file) . . . . . nothing in the addendum addressed bleed through so I don't know if there will ever be a standard . . . . Hopefully the filmmakers will figure out how to minimize the bleedthrough during production (i.e. if the issue is with light content on a dark background then try to reduce scenes with objects significantly brighter than the background). I wonder if the Dolby 3D system shows any ghosting(not a Dolby server with RealD, but a Dolby server with a Dolby 3D system)  |  IP: Logged Kacie MacLagan Film Handler Posts: 5 From: Portage, MI, United States Registered: Feb 2006 posted 11-09-2007 06:04 AM                        I can say I know that there are new settings that have come out for the real D setups in the past week or so. When the settings were added to a screen that was ghosting it reduced it quite a bit. The disney test screen where the right and left were visible (slightly) when you close the opposite eye was now no longer visible. I think that the pumpkin trailer is a huge problem. I saw a movie on a site that they said never has a problem with ghosting with it, and that trailer was the same on sites that reported ghosting.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 11-09-2007 08:08 AM                     In learning how to read whats in a Code Key yesterday I saw that there are non-ghosting versions of some of the 3-D titles. So the ghosting issue looks to be controled more through the software the content resides on. Any one else noticed this in their code keys? The keys are pretty interesting and contain alot of information. Knowing how to read whats in the keys can speed up(cutting it down to minutes literally) getting a correct key when you get one that doesn't work. Server hash, play dates, title, language, sound format, etc. are all in there and easy to see via any web browser. Mark  |  IP: Logged Ken Lackner Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1907 From: Atlanta, GA, USA Registered: Sep 2001 posted 11-10-2007 08:14 AM                     Mark, are you referring to the KDM? Care to share what you learned?  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 11-10-2007 09:44 AM                     Briefly, You can open any KDM's contents with a standard web browser and look at whats inside. SOme of it will be obvious such as title, sound format, language, 3-D or 2-D, etc. On the server hash line you need the certificate generated by it's manufacturer when it's built to be able to double check against that. So keeping the Server hash on a computer so those reading keys can have easy access to it is a good idea. KNowing all this can easily prevent you from loosing any shows if you check the week's KDM(s) before hand. FOr instance, a local theater got a digital print and a good KDM for it for the forst week. The second week's kdm was incirrect and the film wouldn't play (Audio does btw!). SO comparing this weeks KDM info with lasts weeks can tell you where the problem lies. IN this case say the server hash was wrong. You can call the KDM guy(or gal) at that distributer and tell them whats wrong with the new KDM. Some people at distribution will be surprised and some won't and you'll get a good KDM alot faster than if you hadn't looked into the problem. Eventually everyone running digital booths should know how to look at whats in theor KDM's. KDM's can also be issued for multiple screens or even all screens in a given complex with each server's hash on a different key. all e-mailed at the samne time. We move film prints today... we will need an entire set of keys to move digital prints. Mark  |  IP: Logged Ken Lackner Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1907 From: Atlanta, GA, USA Registered: Sep 2001 posted 11-11-2007 07:15 AM                     I really need to learn more about XML. I have a program at home that uses XML files to map the keys to the RF remote on my PC. Here's another good excuse to learn more about it. But I digress. I opnened up a KDM and didn't see anything recognizable. What is the server hash? The KDM I opened was for NBC on a Dolby server. How can I tell that the content is 3D? There are many references to X509. What is that? Sooo many more questions, but we'll start with those.  |  IP: Logged

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