Film-Tech Cinema Systems
  Home     Products     Store     Forum     Warehouse     Contact Us    
Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE


  
my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Century Projectors Retrofitted for Reel-to-Reel (Page 3)

 
This topic comprises 4 pages: 1  2  3  4   
Author Topic: Century Projectors Retrofitted for Reel-to-Reel
Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

- posted 05-12-2009 06:29 PM      Profile for Monte L Fullmer   Email Monte L Fullmer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: John Hawkinson
One minor issue is that many reel-end alarms require counterclockwise supply reels
Unless, you had Motiograph upper magazines that used the "drop-ding" bell alarm mechanism. Then you can go either way with this one.

If I also remember that those rotating Hatke alarms could be disassembled and the insides could be reversed so it will function on a clockwise rotation feed shaft, but don't quote me on that one..

On the discussion on how Brad run his reels in the anti-clockwise direction: I have seen picts of very early 35mm projectors with both reels rotating in the same, anti-clockwise direction.

Guess, Mr. Edison didn't like that arrangement and created the "S" wind for his projectors.

Yet, aren't the movie cameras of old used the "S" wind during operation as well? Maybe this is where this "S" wind for projecting came from-to follow the same film movement as the camera.

Yet, true as Rick said: this discussion is almost like a white/brown egg comparison....

-Monte

 |  IP: Logged
Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 05-12-2009 06:47 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
All of the cameras that I have seen wind emulsion-in ("B-wind") for both feed and takeup. The only exception that I can think of is the Aaton A-minima 16mm camera, but that's a special case (the camera was designed to be small and light) and requires specially packaged raw stock on 200' daylight spools.

 |  IP: Logged
John Hawkinson
Film God

Posts: 2273
From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

- posted 05-12-2009 06:51 PM      Profile for John Hawkinson   Email John Hawkinson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A and B wind are terms that only apply to single-perforated films, like 16mm; they don't have any meaning for 35mm.

B wind is not synonymous with emulsion-in (both A and B wind are emulsion-in). 35mm is not A or B wind, because it is double-perforated.

quote: http://motion.kodak.com/US/en/motion/Support/Technical_Information/Film_Video_Glossary/index.htm

A OR B WIND. When a roll of 16mm film, perforated along one edge, is held so that the outside end of the film leaves the roll at the top and toward the right, winding "A" should have the perforations on the edge of the film toward the observer, and winding "B" should have the perforations on the edge away from the observer. In both cases, the emulsion surface should face inward on the roll.
P.S.: Monte: it's not at all like eggs. Scientific measurements have been done and a twofold shift in focus position has been demonstrated for emulsion-in versus emulsion-out. You can certainly quibble about whether the measurements made in 1965 apply now, and whether they apply to polyester or just acetate, or whether they happen only at particular relative humidities. But there is no question at all of a difference under certain controled measured circumstances.

--jhawk

 |  IP: Logged
Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

- posted 05-12-2009 07:10 PM      Profile for Monte L Fullmer   Email Monte L Fullmer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: John Hawkinson
no question at all of a difference under certain controled measured circumstances.

..what I was wondering on due to certain areas where varying degrees of humidity being the factors in all of this..

..and why film storage is great deep in the mountains...

..why IMAX booths are strictly climated controlled - 50% humidity controlled at all times during operation..

-Monte

 |  IP: Logged
Sam D. Chavez
Film God

Posts: 2153
From: Martinez, CA USA
Registered: Aug 2003

- posted 05-12-2009 07:16 PM      Profile for Sam D. Chavez   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Does anyone know what projector was used for these tests?

Monte,

One good reason to wind soundtrack up on platters was to avoid scratching the analog soundtrack during makeup. This was important back in the day when we used the analog soundtrack 100% of the time.

 |  IP: Logged
Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

- posted 05-12-2009 07:28 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Actually...I'm an emulsion out on the platter and emulsion in on reels.

My tests were primarily done on Century JJs...using hubs as large as 8" with a max diameter of 22". Without fail, emulsion-in resulted in notably more stable focus on either acetate or polyester. While I don't believe Brad is lying about his findings, I have not personally seen anything that contradicts my findings.

It is a hope of mine to be able to do a more quantitative study on the subject (for the 5 people that may actually care) by running/storing film for a lengthy period of time and maintain direction exclusively in that particular reel's set up (one only ever emulsion in, one only ever emulsion out) and have suitable targets at the beginning/end and possibly middle to make absolute measurements as to the effects.

I've run and am responsible for a fair amount of reel-to-reel booths so I don't treat this subject with mere speculation...it is a serious discussion for those that want superior shows.

Steve

 |  IP: Logged
Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

- posted 05-12-2009 08:16 PM      Profile for Monte L Fullmer   Email Monte L Fullmer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Guttag
using hubs as large as 8" with a max diameter of 22
Thus, larger diameter hubs meant less bend on the film itself along with lower rotation torque...makes sense.

..be like those low-torque, large hub 5 and 7 inch audio tape reels that the recording factories which produced pre-recorded infomation of the past used.

 |  IP: Logged
John Hawkinson
Film God

Posts: 2273
From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

- posted 05-12-2009 09:25 PM      Profile for John Hawkinson   Email John Hawkinson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sam asks, "Does anyone know what projector was used for these tests?."

Sadly, I don't know if Preo and Yavitz are around --- John Pytlak would almost certainly have known. However, John did mention that Kodak's "Theatre on the Ridge" has AAIIs, and given that the paper has passing reference to 70mm projection, it seems plausible that a 35/70 projector was used, and in 1965, so I think that's a good bet.

Steve: Do you run 2k changeovers on 8" hubs? (probably not; but just in case:) Wow! I thought 5" hubs were the largest anyone ever used for 2k reels...

--jhawk

 |  IP: Logged
Sam D. Chavez
Film God

Posts: 2153
From: Martinez, CA USA
Registered: Aug 2003

- posted 05-12-2009 10:16 PM      Profile for Sam D. Chavez   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I would wonder about the AA11 as a stable test bed as the 35mm gate on these is not its best features. Heresy you say?

I have observed other tests done in '60's with JJ's where they seemed to prefer emulsion in for best focus, particularly toward the end of the reel.

 |  IP: Logged
John Hawkinson
Film God

Posts: 2273
From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

- posted 05-12-2009 10:44 PM      Profile for John Hawkinson   Email John Hawkinson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The end of the reel is definitely the place where this shows up, because the claim is that the focus shift should be a function of the winding diameter, which changes faster and faster (square-root n) as you hit the end of the reel.

Though oddly enough Figure 3 of the paper shows the change being linear. So wtf?

-

--jhawk

 |  IP: Logged
Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

- posted 05-12-2009 11:55 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: John Hawkinson
Brad, are you saying it makes no difference for you on acetate film?

I think Brad has clearly said that emulsion-out is better for him on polyester film on platters.
My findings have been that in every instance, whether platter or reels, acetate or polyester, winding emulsion-out consistently produced the least focus drift AND didn't warp acetate film over time like storing emulsion-in does.

quote: John Hawkinson
I would not want to take-up with a halftwist on old brittle acetate prints for which this is the most pertinent (practically speaking)
Nobody should EVER twist the actual film on projector-mounted reel to reel system. If there is no other way to do it, then twisting the takeup belt is the proper solution.

quote: John Hawkinson
Also, relative humidity is very different in Texas (Brad) from the Eastern seabord (Steve and I, and for that matter, Rochester, NY, where Kodak's work was done by Preo and Yavitz). And it's well-documented that film's curl varies dramatically with RH (no debate!).
Agreed, but I have received prints that have been in storage for a long time in that area of the country that were wound emulsion in and they had severe focus drift on them when I first projected them, but once I leave them stored emulsion out for a long time, that focus problem lessened.

quote: Sam Chavez
Does anyone know what projector was used for these tests?
Sam may have very well pinpointed a MAJOR issue with the RP39 testing there.

quote: John Hawkinson
The end of the reel is definitely the place where this shows up
Yes, but the first couple of minutes matter too, but that is not from the film, it is from the optics being cold. [Wink]

 |  IP: Logged
Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

- posted 05-13-2009 12:43 AM      Profile for Monte L Fullmer   Email Monte L Fullmer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
..From my comment above
quote: Monte L Fullmer
To do anti-clockwise rotation, you'd put a half twist in the takeup belt between the pulleys (and you would then want to use round leather belt material so the twist can be done easier
..
quote: John Hawkinson
I would not want to take-up with a halftwist on old brittle acetate prints for which this is the most pertinent (practically speaking)
I should have added the words "of the takeup reel" after the 1st comma in the above comment.

Sorry, if I mislead anyone on the half-twist in the takeup belt on the lower magazine...

-Monte

 |  IP: Logged
John Hawkinson
Film God

Posts: 2273
From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

- posted 05-13-2009 02:51 AM      Profile for John Hawkinson   Email John Hawkinson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm sorry, Monte. Your words were clear, but I just read them wrong. My fault!

--jhawk

 |  IP: Logged
Dave Macaulay
Film God

Posts: 2321
From: Toronto, Canada
Registered: Apr 2001

- posted 05-13-2009 09:34 PM      Profile for Dave Macaulay   Email Dave Macaulay   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
OK, how do you get the takeup to go counterclockwise? Twist the belt?

 |  IP: Logged
Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

- posted 05-13-2009 10:02 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
That or in the case of a Century you can simply install a simplex pulley on the holdback sprocket shaft.

Some Kinoton projectors come with a convenient selector knob to dictate direction. [thumbsup]

 |  IP: Logged


All times are Central (GMT -6:00)
This topic comprises 4 pages: 1  2  3  4   
   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
- Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.

© 1999-2020 Film-Tech Cinema Systems, LLC. All rights reserved.