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Author Topic: Black & White On Color Film Stock- - Why? Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 08-16-2009 07:49 PM                     And in the mid '20s there were films with a few scenes in cemented Tehnicolor in an otherwise black and white film. Some prints of 'The Great Train Robbery' (1903) had the flash as the safe is blown tinted in orange.  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-16-2009 09:04 PM                        The "B&W" sections of Wizard of Oz were originally sepia "dye monochrome," not B&W. The current prints of this title have the sepia sections printed on standard color stock. There were a number of dye-transfer prints (supposedly 50) made for the 1998 reissue; some of these are still in circulation, but also use standard (non-dye-transfer) color print stock for the sepia sections.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 08-16-2009 09:38 PM                     Monte...as Scott pointed out...but not completely...you are half backward on the original release and completely backwards on the last release. That is, the color section is on B&W stock since it was a dye-transfer...ever had an IB-Tech print in your hands? Look at it closely...it is B&W stock. For the reissue, they did use color stock to fake the sepia effect. I've run more than one of the more recent release prints...they looked pretty darn good. I appreciate that they only let those prints go to theatres that had 1.37 lenses. If all you had was "Flat and Scope" then you got a standard release print...all on color stock with the 1.37 image within the 1.85 frame.  |  IP: Logged John Walsh Film God Posts: 2490 From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way Registered: Oct 1999 posted 08-16-2009 10:30 PM                     One thing not mentioned here is the build-up of material in the gate/trap when running B&W stock. (It was a hard, white power-like stuff.) It happened when I ran "Zelig" and, "She's Gotta Have It." As a producer/director, that alone might make me reluctant to release in B&W. When Technicolor tried doing IB releases 10 years ago or so, the same thing started happening. I would get stuck to the runners and push the film way out of the focal plane of the lens. You could clean the gate/trap perfectly, and at the end of the next show it would all come back. If you waited too long to clean it off (an hour or so) it would get hard and hard to clean off. So, if (as a producer/director) if I wanted the B&W look, I might just specify color stock and let it go to avoid the problems later.  |  IP: Logged Victor Liorentas Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 800 From: london ontario canada Registered: May 2009 posted 08-16-2009 10:46 PM                     Schindlers list would have to be refocused many times during the show when i ran it and it looked like a war zone in the Vic 8 at the end! I wonder if filmguard would solve this today?  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 08-17-2009 12:08 AM                     quote: Steve Guttag That is, the color section is on B&W stock since it was a dye-transfer...ever had an IB-Tech print in your hands? Yep, ran the print back in 1971 for a week. Reel One was regular B/W with no sepia. Two, Three and Four and half of Five were IB Tech (dang, that color was fantastic..!) with the splice in the middle of Five to go back to B/W. I also ran the movie in 1986, but this time, even though it was full frame, the color portions were on Eastman stock and if you looked closely in some scenes, you can see the color shift due to the three strip color bleed throughs due to negative shrinkage.. True, the 1998 release was all on color stock with the sepia tone added to the 1st reel and the latter part of the 5th reel...and we had the 1.85:1 boxed image reduction print that Warner released back then. -Monte  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 08-17-2009 06:43 AM                     Film Guard will absolutely eliminate the problem of B&W dusting in the gate. Then again, so would running Kinotons with Delrin skates/runners  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-17-2009 08:51 AM                     I've only run the sing along version... and FWIW it's Eastman.  |  IP: Logged Richard P. May Expert Film Handler Posts: 243 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Jan 2006 posted 08-17-2009 09:49 AM                     Just to beat THE WIZARD OF OZ horse (of a different color) a little more: In the original release, and 1949 reissue the first reel and last three minutes of reel 5 were printed at the MGM Lab in BW, then chemically toned sepia. Prints were assembled with the Technicolor reels in the local distribution exchanges. After the demise of dye-transfer in the 1970s, a CRI negative was made from the 3-strip Technicolor negatives, and used for printing on Eastman Color stock. At that time MGM stopped the sepia toning, and printed the Kansas sequences on regular BW stock. It looked awful, especially at the change into color. In the mid 1980s, I was working for MGM, and after some argument got the lab to start printing Kansas on color stock, timed to come out as sepia. A great improvement. In 1990 (now under Turner ownership) we did a full restoration from the 3-strip negatives, making a proper internegative. This made a large improvement in the color sections over the use of CRI negative. Kansas remained sepia, on color stock. The 1998 reissue (under WB ownership) used either the revived dye-transfer for the color, and Eastman for Kansas, or reduced aperture, all Eastman for prints intended for theaters that weren't set up for 1:37 aperture projection. Back to MGM - 16mm prints were made with BW Kansas, and Eastman Color, with the jarring switch from BW to color. Had these been made on color stock all along, it would be simple to time them sepia, and eliminate the assembly of two kinds of stock in the lab. That's all history now, anyway. DM  |  IP: Logged Jeff Taylor Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 601 From: Chatham, NJ/East Hampton, NY Registered: Apr 2000 posted 08-17-2009 11:10 AM                     Regarding Dick's comment above on the MGM printed 16mm Wizzard prints it is a jarring jump from true black and white in Kansas to sepia when the house lands and the color stock begins followed almost immediately by Dorothy opening the door of the house to reveal the full color "Oz"--at least on the LPP's.  |  IP: Logged Richard P. May Expert Film Handler Posts: 243 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Jan 2006 posted 08-17-2009 11:49 AM                     And now for some comment on "dye monochrome" mentioned by Scott. This was how the BW sections of A MATTER OF LIFE AND DEATH (aka STAIRWAY TO HEAVEN) were credited on the main title. Printing matrices for Technicolor were made from BW negative, so properly balanced resulted in a BW image. If you watch the picture on film, however, it is evident that that "perfect balance" was hard to accomplish. There are many very subtle color tinges in the "heaven" BW sections. DM  |  IP: Logged

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