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Author Topic: Renting Pink Noise Generator ? Demetris Thoupis Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1240 From: Aradippou, Larnaca, Cyprus Registered: Apr 2001 posted 05-14-2010 01:03 PM                     Randy I am with you. I understand perfectly your position. YOU HAVE to insist that even what you try will not improve a SHIT processor. Bi amping all screen speakers (even just the centre is a great improvement) and a NEW processor with many of todays and future capabilities is the ONLY way to go. Don't tune the shit processor for nothing. You will only end up doing double the work with tripple the hustle with quadrouble the shit you have to go through! Convince them. Tell them is either this or you are better sticking with the crap you have because its not worth putting any cent for this type of processor NOW after all that has happened. First of all you need to tell them that Smart is long dead obsolete. Parts are rare, sounds like shit so long, why would it sound better afterwards? Demetris  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 05-14-2010 01:22 PM                        So, what are the issues with running film sound through a Media Matrix box? I am tangentially involved with an opening-next-year multi-use facility that might be doing just this. I'm not familiar with the Media Matrix, but I have been told that it is essentially the same thing as an automated patch panel. Is there something horribly wrong with this approach? The live stage people who are involved with this project seem to think that it is the greatest thing since sliced bread.  |  IP: Logged Demetris Thoupis Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1240 From: Aradippou, Larnaca, Cyprus Registered: Apr 2001 posted 05-14-2010 01:39 PM                     Media Matrix is not the only company out there. There are more DSP Matrix mixing companies e.g Symmetrix, even EAW makes, e.t.c. I had to spec a system relevant to what you are about to do. I DID use a DSP matrix mixing device for two reasons. First it provided me with enough inputs to be able to route from the main CINEMA processor towards the amplifiers (and crossover it via a preset) but keep the eq in this dsp matrix device flat since all eq was done from the Cinema processor side (beside the crossovering) and also give me two inputs so I could use the same speakers for live events as well (via a live mixing console) so the system basically is able to either route audio from the cinema processor unequed in the dsp except crossovering via a preset directly on the amps and into the theater, and using a Crestron TP the system switches the inputs to the mixing console and uses a complete different preset applying also feedback suppresion and other compression/limiter facilities used in live events. Its not a bad thing it just has to be configured correctly. What is really though impressive today is the steerable arrays various companies make, Renkus Heinz being top on my list, used for live events for very demanding places. Two speakers like that and you are done. Those speakers can direct the sound beam directly on the listeners ear so in live events you have CRISP sound at the listener no matter what. Demetris  |  IP: Logged Richard Hamilton Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1341 From: Evansville, Indiana Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-14-2010 01:47 PM                     Scott, The Media Matrix is fine for special Venues. When I took their training course about 10 years ago, I believe they said they had Media Matrixes in all of Disney's attractions. Just read Demetris's response, and that sounds like he could help you.  |  IP: Logged Kenneth Wuepper Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1026 From: Saginaw, MI, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 05-14-2010 03:56 PM                     Randy, I have heard this sound argument for many years with regard to the organ sound in auditoriums and churches. Basically the live sound system should be entirely separate from the other discrete sound systems in the room. Since you are having trouble with the dialog channel of the cinema system, just look at the multiple sources for the sound in the room. The cinema center speaker. (this as it should be) Then there is the main PA cluster, the (hopefully delayed) under balcony speakers. All of these producing the same sound. While it is pretty good for music it makes understanding film dialog difficult. If you could look at the delay in the system between the cinema center speaker and the main PA cluster you might identify the problem you are experiencing. Since the cinema signal goes through several processing steps more than the PA, there is possibly enough time difference to destroy articulation in the room. Mentioning the "live" room, it is critical that the direct sound from the center speaker does not hit the side walls as the reflections will definitely destroy articulation. It is possible to use a laser pointer on the inside of the horn to show approximately where the sound is being directed. Aim the horn carefully to avoid the walls as much as possible. You can also minimize the slap from the back wall by pointing the horn downward using the laser as a guide. The sound needs to end just above the last row of seats. Probably the only real asset from the PA system is your ability to use the hearing impaired feature. (That also needs to be properly delayed to work well) Hope this is helpful. KEN  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 05-14-2010 04:03 PM                     It's not simply that the media matrix is bad. It is old and outdated, for sure, but the main problem is that one of the speakers is controlled by the Media Matrix and the others are not. If it was hooked up correctly I don't think it would be a bad thing but this sound system is so badly bungled up that it hardly works for anything, let alone cinema sound. There are probably several upgrade cycles that would be needed to get it up to the place where it would be usable for cinema sound. The guy who fixes the system only does patchwork, at best. Yes, I know that the Smart processor isn't very good but I guarantee that it will not be upgraded this year, even if I walked in with a machine gun and threatened to kill the boss's first born. If I could put in a brand new processor or even a used one I would do it in a heartbeat but it just ain't going to happen. I am damn lucky to be getting one stinking speaker at all! So, what I have to do is to take what I have to work with and make it sound as good as possible. When that works, even if the difference is small, I can use it as leverage to go to the next level. Ken, Thanks for your advice. When I get things rolling I will be sure to re-aim things to keep the sound off the walls. I just got word that the speaker will be ordered soon and this project should be under way by the beginning of June.  |  IP: Logged Sean McKinnon Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1712 From: Peabody Massachusetts Registered: Sep 2000 posted 05-14-2010 05:33 PM                        You know Randy those old smart are known to fail and if it happened to mysteriously fail one day they would have no option but to get a new processor Seriously though I agree that having the center channel come from more than one speaker system is a bad idea and could definately be a big factor to inaudible dialog. I bet that in effect both speaker systems are canceling each other's sound pressure out. What would you do if you had a show that wanted to speak over some type of low volume film or dvd sound? Having 2 seperate systems make this easy. Some speaker cable and a couple of JBL EON self powered speakers hung on the front side walls facing into the house is a cheap and effective way to get a totally independant PA system.  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 05-14-2010 06:05 PM                     Trick with large houses is to set the EQ for center channel with the LF's turned all the way down. Then start to run flat at 800hz up to 2kHz, then roll off the HF's. This will help bring out the voice audio channel to be more clearer over the L and R channels.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 05-14-2010 08:48 PM                     quote: Monte L Fullmer Trick with large houses is to set the EQ for center channel with the LF's turned all the way down. Then start to run flat at 800hz up to 2kHz, then roll off the HF's. Ummmm....NO. Seriously Monte, what the fuck? That is NOT how a room is tuned. If you need a "quick fix" for bad dialogue intelligibility and can't fix it properly, turn the center channel up a couple of db or something.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 05-14-2010 09:25 PM                     first i doubt the mod2b is the source of the problem nor is the media matrix as they are very common and reliable that said the interface is the issue then the alignment  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 05-14-2010 10:22 PM                     I think the Mod II-B can produce "passable" sound. Not great but okay. I think that this round of fix-ups will pave the way for future improvements. We show the Met Opera via satellite. We are generating some ticket sales (income) from these shows. I think that the desire for improvements to the Met Opera presentation will drive the boss's thinking in the next year or so. I think that untangling the mess and retuning the system will prove to be the thing that gets the ball rolling toward more improvements. The speakers are on wheeled carts. Aligning them is as simple as giving them a push in the right direction. There are spike marks nailed into the floor I use to position the speakers each time they are rolled out. To change the alignment all that is needed is to pound in new nails.  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 05-15-2010 07:15 AM                        The CP-650 is the only source for Dolby Digital. I suggest you use it as your main processor. It has a 6 channel analog input standard. A CP-750 or JSD80 could feed that input to allow more flexibility. btw: I have NEVER seen a cinema sound system successfully integrated with a sound reinforcement system. Stand alone is the way to go. Cheaper, too. Louis  |  IP: Logged Sam D. Chavez Film God Posts: 2153 From: Martinez, CA USA Registered: Aug 2003 posted 05-15-2010 10:35 AM                       I have been involved with multi-media sound systems where the cinema processor plays through the house system and they are always messy as Louis says. It can be done, but the operator needs to be well trained.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-15-2010 03:31 PM                     Okay...I'll chime in on this...I've done MANY "integrated" systems. Without fail, those that "integrate" the cinema with the "other" systems, result in some degree of failure. I've spend more time un-integrating systems than integrating them too. The Media Matrix (or the sound web or the current Biamp wizbang thing....etc) can be great devices and give much flexibility but the cinema system should NOT go through them...they bring NOTHING to the system but a point of failure. If you look at my AFI/Silver photos you will see a Media Matrix on every screen. It feeds the PA system which uses separate speakers, amps...etc. The Cinema systems (as well as the PA systems) stand unto themselves. Now BOTH systems CAN feed the other automatically or via a hard patch but 99.9999% of the time...never do they meet (sonically). Of the few times they have been integrated, it has been the PA system that feeds the cinema system. Cinema systems are very specific, they don't need to be "helped" or fiddled with. As such, they tend to be more reliable than the systems that are subjected to the whims of various users. If you MUST integrate...have the CINEMA PROCESSOR the last point in the food chain (that feeds the crossovers, amps, speakers). It will be MUCH more reliable. Steve  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 05-15-2010 05:02 PM                     That is exactly what I want to do. I want to sever the links between the Mod II-B and the Media Matrix. Then I want to tune up the M.M. the way it should be. Then I want to send an output to the media matrix in order to feed the hearing impaired system. That's it.  |  IP: Logged

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