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Topic: Phantom Cue on trailer "The Grownups"

Chris Slycord
Film God

Posts: 2986
From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 06-13-2010 12:24 PM

If you can't do the suggestion of running the film in a different house, you could try swapping out trailer with something else.

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Jeremy Weigel
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1062
From: Edmond, OK, USA
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 06-13-2010 01:48 PM

Disconnect the FM-35 from the automation and run the show manually. If the lights go down early or some other function occurs without manual input then you have an automation problem or incorrect setting. If nothing occurs then you have a bad FM-35 unit or possibly an intermittent short in the wiring between the automation and the FM-35.

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Chris Slycord
Film God

Posts: 2986
From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 06-13-2010 02:35 PM

quote: Jeremy Weigel
If nothing occurs then you have a bad FM-35 unit or possibly an intermittent short in the wiring between the automation and the FM-35.

I wouldn't expect an intermittent short to do what he's described since he said that the phantom cue happens at the same exact spot in the trailer pack with a reproducible rate of 100%. I'd expect an intermittent short to send out the cue intermittently.

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Tom Egbert
Film Handler

Posts: 13
From: Victor, Idaho, USA
Registered: Oct 2009

posted 06-13-2010 10:06 PM

Thank you guys for all the feedback. This is great to have such a resource! We have removed all known cue tape that we applied except for one on our black leader. So, now, all the cues that are left are false cues. There are three known false cues. One at the beginning of the new KK film in the Grownups trailer, one near the end of the movie, and one somewhere in the middle of the credits that causes the projector to shut down prematurely with film still in it.

I am leaning toward what Michael suggests. Our FM-35 cue detector is on its way out. I think I failed to mention. At the end of Shrek, our alarm started sounding. We had been running the film flawlessly for a week of more, then near the end of our lease, this alarm. We thought that may have been because it needed cleaning. Well, it is clean as a whistle now, but cleaning did not correct the problem. I think I need to do a Kepner Trego analysis here to keep the facts straight. We just have to remember one thing!!! The cues are sent at the same film location every time. This indicates a problem at the cue detector, not in the automation. And also, remember, the red led that flashes when a piece of foil tape goes through does not flash, but a cue is still sent.

Tom

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Jack Ondracek
Film God

Posts: 2348
From: Port Orchard, WA, USA
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 06-14-2010 01:51 AM

That lack of indication makes me wonder why everyone suspects the FM35. If the detector is not activating a relay, as indicated by the associated LED, how could the detector be at fault?

Offhand, I'd be concerned that this whole FM-35 chat might be diverting attention from some other cause.

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99

posted 06-14-2010 02:03 AM

I agree. Further, we still have not determined whether it is the film or the machine that is at fault. Until you try new, known-good, film in the suspect machine and/or try the suspect film in a known-good machine you might not know where the problem lies at all.

You're basically just guessing.

It is my hunch, the same as the others, that there is a fault in the automation but until you eliminate the first, simplest probable cause (the film) you could be spinning your wheels in the sand, only to spend hours trying to fix the problem and find out the answer really was "that simple."

Do the easy things first. If those don't work, THEN move on to other things. [thumbsup]

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Michael Voiland
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 219
From: Naperville, IL US
Registered: Aug 2009

posted 06-14-2010 02:24 AM

Just as a crazy thought. What type of splicing tape are you using.
And

On your fm35s is the cue tape on the right of the film. They don't read cues to well if the cue tape is on the wrong side of the film.

Just food for thought.

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted 06-14-2010 02:31 AM

Even though not familar with the FP-35 but wonder if there is a small momboard underneath that has wire tailings from the IC devices on the momboard that are touching ground someplace that is causing the unit to act as its presently doing...

I go from this on experience from those SPECO/3Q failsafes on the Christie where I had a similar situation and it was indeed a wire tailing that was touching the momboard cover behing the failsafe unit causing a grounding out, thus shutting down the system anywhere it wants to.

..another 3 cents worth of info. - Monte

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 06-14-2010 06:44 AM

if it was the fm35 you would see the led light and here the click
i would rule out the fm35 as being the problem and look at the eprad

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Richard Hamilton
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1341
From: Evansville, Indiana
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 06-14-2010 10:23 AM

I'm not familiar with that automation, but just glancing over the manual here on Film-Tech, I see it has a cue learning mode where it will cue the functions even if there is no tape on the film. Sounds like you're in the wrong mode on the automation. Your automation is now programmed to cue based on a certain timeline, not the actual foil cues.

It can't be the failsafe because you said it happens at the exact same spot each time. A faulty wire or ground would happen intermittently.

I would suggest reading the manual and reprogramming the automation so it looks at the cues only.

Rick

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Richard Hamilton
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1341
From: Evansville, Indiana
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 06-14-2010 12:20 PM

quote: Tom Egbert
We have been running fine since we opened in February until this film came along.

Mark Gulbrandsen came and jump started us in February.

huh? Were you having problems before? I don't think Mark carries jumper cables in his Range Rover. [Wink]

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Jack Ondracek
Film God

Posts: 2348
From: Port Orchard, WA, USA
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 06-14-2010 01:54 PM

quote: Michael Voiland
On your fm35s is the cue tape on the right of the film. They don't read cues to well if the cue tape is on the wrong side of the film.

A little off topic, but I don't ever have to consider which side the cue is on. The FM35, at least my 3, read(s) them just fine.

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Richard Hamilton
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1341
From: Evansville, Indiana
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 06-15-2010 03:33 PM

please let us know what you found out [uhoh]

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99

posted 06-15-2010 05:12 PM

quote: Michael Voiland
On your fm35s is the cue tape on the right of the film. They don't read cues to well if the cue tape is on the wrong side of the film.

quote: Jack Ondracek
A little off topic, but I don't ever have to consider which side the cue is on. The FM35, at least my 3, read(s) them just fine.

The FM-35 uses inductive eddy currents to detect the metal foil cues. It should not have trouble reading through the film as long as there is enough metal to cause a disturbance in the electromagnetic field around the detector.

It uses the same theory of operation as the metal detectors you see old guys walking along the beach with. If a metal detector can find a penny through a foot of water and sand, the FM-35 can find a patch of foil through 140 µm of polyester film.

If your detector is having trouble reading cues off the other side of the film and you can empirically demonstrate this phenomenon your detector has a problem that needs to be fixed.

And, if that is the case, your FM-35 needs to be repaired or replaced.

However... Before you do that, you need to verify that the automation is not messed up and you need to verify that it is not an unseen problem in the film that is causing the malfunction.

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Tom Egbert
Film Handler

Posts: 13
From: Victor, Idaho, USA
Registered: Oct 2009

posted 06-17-2010 02:09 PM

We discovered our problem. We have an EPRAD Ultimation 2000. It has a cue learn sequence. From the time we were left with this beast by our tech, Mark Gulbranson, it was in cue learn mode for every film and time we ran a movie. As long as the automation is in cue learn mode, it is always learning the position of cues, never actually using them. Well, my brother, not knowing this, pressed the cue learn button, thus taking the automation out of cue learn mode. The result is that the automation would run the Karate Kid presentation using the last learned cue sequence, which happened to be Shrek.

To correct, we put the automation back into cue learn mode so that is it ALWAYS reading our cues and not using a stored sequence.

There you have it. We learned something here. I am happy for the experience. We also have a VERY CLEAN FM-35!

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