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Author Topic: Restoring 70mm in my home town...I want to know everything you know! Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 10-24-2010 08:35 PM                     I think it's important to point out a few of the factors that play into the problem of why 35mm experience does not translate to 70mm experience: 1. They are not the same. Never were. I was involved in a few 70mm screenings without directly handling the print. I'm very comfortable with 35mm and I'd love to have 70mm experience, but I walked away from that experience knowing that I'd better pursue certain specific training before I ever handle a real 70mm print. 2. So that goes double for the many "projectionists" today who, in my opinion, aren't up to the challenge of handling 35mm. 3a. In fact, there always was more risk because, even in their time, 70mm footage would cost more to replace than 35mm footage. Due mostly to the mag striping, which had to be done in a separate step, in real-time. 3b. Existing 70mm prints are more precious than ever due to the scarcity of good prints, which won't be replaced if they get trashed. So there's even more risk now. 4. The passage of time has meant that existing equipment has fallen far out of spec, so it's not only important to know how to handle the print, but also how to bring equipment back into proper alignment. These are the reasons I think 70mm won't make a comeback. If the studios had kept the format alive, projection wouldn't be such a big challenge. But, just like returning to the moon, the dust of time has settled on the technology, and the people with first-hand experience are getting on in years, and that expertise will likely die out with them. All we will be left with are filtered accounts of how it was done. Now...Everybody calm down... I'm not equating 70mm with a moon shot but I think the challenge faced by subsequent generations is bigger when there's no direct continuity or momentum leftover from the heyday.  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 10-24-2010 08:39 PM                     quote: I'm not equating 70mm with a moon shot [Eek!] but I think the challenge faced by subsequent generations is bigger when there's no direct continuity or momentum leftover from the heyday. Why not? The best way to get people to do something is to tell them it can't be done!  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 10-24-2010 08:41 PM                     Fine -- "IT CAN'T BE DONE"  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 10-24-2010 08:50 PM                        There is no doubt that the knowledge base is aging/dieing out. This is true in many industries. 70mm is to Dcinema as 35mm is to Super 8. Cheaper, too! Louis  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 10-24-2010 08:55 PM                        I have run 70mm and have spent quite a bit of time talking to people who are very experienced with the format. The differences vs. 35mm seem to come down to: - sound formats - the need to re-set Dolby tone and EQ for each print (assuming that print-specific loops are available) - the need to demagnetize anything metal in the film path - gate tension needs to be checked and re-set for each print (mag prints only) - feed and takeup tension need to be carefully set, and takeups often need a bit of manual "help" at start Did I miss anything? (There may be some platter-specific issues that I didn't mention; I have not run 70mm on a platter, nor am I likely to ever have the opportunity to do so.) None of this seems to be all that difficult. The real issue is that, as stated above, these prints are rare and need to be kept in top condition. This shouldn't really be a problem for anyone who is accustomed to dealing with archive prints and who cares enough to learn to do the job correctly. Do practice with a trailer or junk film before trashing an actual print. What I am trying to say is that you should definitely heed the advice in this thread to find a 70mm expert to explain what you need to know, but that it really isn't that difficult to do this right, and that you should not take this thread as being too discouraging. Go for it--keep 70mm alive!  |  IP: Logged Brian Rose Film Handler Posts: 14 From: Shawnee, KS, USA Registered: Oct 2010 posted 10-24-2010 09:27 PM                     Thanks so much for all the advice guys! It's not too discouraging, because much of what you've written is really just good, common sense: these prints are practically one of a kind, ultra rare, and ought to be cared for. And really, I have no choice but to do everything in this process right. I want this to be a reliable venue, that can be trusted with these prints, so I can bring these spectacular films to my area, which has long been deprived of a venue with which to experience them as they were intended. If I cut corners, and wind up damaging a print...that's it, gameover. Reputation is screwed, and no archive or studio will dare lend to me. Of course, money will be an issue, but that is something for another thread...which I think I'll be starting now! Thanks again! BR  |  IP: Logged Sam D. Chavez Film God Posts: 2153 From: Martinez, CA USA Registered: Aug 2003 posted 10-24-2010 11:21 PM                       It is the same as 35mm only fatter, but running a 70mm mag print now, even for an experienced operator, can be quite nerve racking as there is no more if the print gets damaged for any reason.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 10-24-2010 11:36 PM                     Its really not the same. Projectionists today are spoiled by polyester base prints. All 70mm prints (except for some of the recent dts stuff) are acetate. Also due to the age and typically poor storage conditions, the 70mm prints will be brittle and will break easily. Also I have yet to meet a JJ that the gates could simply be swapped out on to convert to 70mm. Steve Guttag claims he had a pair at the Uptown that were like that, but I've ran many 70mm shows on many different JJs and not one of them had optimal gate tension to prevent wear on the film without making adjustments.  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 10-24-2010 11:38 PM                     Existing 70mm mag-striped prints are very rare and should only be handled by projectionists who really know how to handle it as well as only be run in very good theaters that handle 70mm showings of "catalog" movies on a somewhat regular basis. Newer 70mm prints with DTS time code don't have quite the level of complication as the mag striped variety. IMAX and IMAX 3D film setups are running in dozens of locations across the country. They certainly appear to be a lot more complex than a 5/70mm DTS setup, which is one reason why I keep beating the dead horse about lots of giant screened non-IMAX theaters needing to run 70mm DTS blowups instead of 35mm, 2K digital or too damned dim 4K digital.  |  IP: Logged Christian Appelt Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 505 From: Frankfurt, Germany Registered: Dec 2001 posted 10-25-2010 05:10 AM                     Scott, one addition to your list: Reels (for changeover projection) The last time we did 70mm, we had about 20 reels and we needed them because there were short films that came on cores and two new polyester feature prints with 15 to 17 parts - also on core. I spent one day cleaning and checking every reel. NEVER try to show 70mm with bent reels or indented reel edges - it's a sure way to damage film. A slight crack on the reel's outside diameter - hardly large enough to feel it with your hand - will act like a sharp blade when it catches the unwinding film. Even polyester will be torn easily by a damaged spool edge. Platters are fine for new prints, but with older acetate/mag-stripe prints I never felt comfortable with the twist the film has to make at some point. Oh, and having good rewinds (and knowing how to handle the additional weight of 70mm) is important too.  |  IP: Logged Paul Gordon Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 580 From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Registered: Aug 2005 posted 10-25-2010 07:35 AM                        70mm acetate prints are stronger then you think, the mag tracks add strength. Gate tension though can vary between prints. We found that a little film guard on the gate between every reel also helped. Lots of good house reels are important though you really can't use shipping reels for take up like with 35mm. Getting those JJ's setup for 70mm will be a mission!  |  IP: Logged Sam D. Chavez Film God Posts: 2153 From: Martinez, CA USA Registered: Aug 2003 posted 10-25-2010 10:02 AM                       As I almost said, nerve {w}racking. As someone else said, they should only be run by operators with experience running 70mm and on well shook out equipment. I had one operator running on AA11's have the thinner new reels walk off the end of the take up spindles. Seems the bases were not level and the AA11 doesn't have American style reel keys/latches and there was enough end play for the reel to disengage. Little things like that will ruin the print and your day.  |  IP: Logged Richard Hamilton Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1341 From: Evansville, Indiana Registered: Jan 2000 posted 10-25-2010 10:45 AM                     When Beauty and the Beast came out in 8/70, i got a call from a theater in Orlando with a MegaSystems 8/70 projector, we had installed it for this show. They were complaining about the sound losing sync during the show, blaming the equipment. I drove down, watched the movie, and sure enough, the attached preview was in sync, then the movie was out and got worse. I asked the projectionist if there were any breaks in the film or if anything had happened, to which he responded "no". During my troubleshooting, I kept saying there were missing frames, to which he replied "no". Since this was a new print, I found boxes that the reels were shipped in. He cut off a few "index frames" on all heads and tails bulding the print. When I was on the phone with Disney explaining the situation, I happened to notice some 70mm film in the trash can. I pulled out a few feet of damaged Disney logo. I asked the projectionist, and I use that term loosely, about it and just said "oh yeah, I forgot about that, I had a misthread and the platter wrapped" To which I replied, "The film opened yesterday, I fucking asked you and you forgot? get the fuck out of the booth!" Disney overnighted a new print and asked me to stay and build it and preview it. Oh yeah, I almost forgot, when I was making it up the next morning, he was in the booth. There was a squeeky roller on the make up table. Before I saw what he was doing, he walked over with an oil can and squirted a full shot of oil on the squeeky bearing. I had to quickly stop the table and check for oil droppings everywhere. My face and shirt were splattered with oil. I told their home office not to let him in the booth anymore. Rick Hamilton Technical Services Sorry, no witty disclaimer comes to mind!  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 10-25-2010 04:12 PM                     I thought witty disclaimers/signatures were banned here (years ago)... I'd seriously recommend allying with an expert operator and installer, and doing a feasibility study on the venue itself before you go much further. Moving beyond the projector's ability to accommodate 70mm, what does this cinema sound like? Just because it's the only location with a 35/70 projector already installed does not mean it's the best place to properly show off the 70mm format. For example, is the infrastructure is in place to support the various sound formats. Does the cinema support all 5 screen channels? Split surround? And, just because the Le/Re speakers may be there doesn't mean they're still alive. At one of my former theatres, the Le/Re pair had developed issues in the years that they sat unused. They were subsequently removed (and not replaced) during renovation. Once that new screen went up, it pretty much made it a done-deal that it'd take a small miracle for us to ever see those channels put back into service. (IIRC, the original speaker lines were removed and replaced, with service to L,C,R and LFE only. Making it even less likely that Le/Re would ever be back.) So I just posted on the fund-raising thread that people have been known to drive hundreds of miles to see 70mm. There is no point in getting people excited about seeing movies "the way they were meant to be seen" only to have those hopes dashed by a flawed presentation. That's not what 70mm is about at all! Quite the opposite, in fact: 70mm is PRESUMED to be "film done right." People will shave their legs for it, but they'll demand excellence...or a refund. And, make no mistake, getting this show up and running ain't gonna be cheap! With such an investment on the line, could you really afford to give refunds and/or pay for print damage?  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 10-25-2010 11:30 PM                     quote: Manny Knowles I thought witty disclaimers/signatures were banned here (years ago)... They were, but for whatever reason never made it to the rules page. Regardless, no more signatures please. I'll update the rules page when I get a minute.  |  IP: Logged

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