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Author Topic: LPP film stock fading Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 05-19-2011 04:11 PM                     The fugitive had problems up here after a few weeks on any system over 3K no matter how flat it was focused and xekote was never used in any of them It was on Gevart stock and John Pytlak had some of it tested and determined that gevart was haveing a bigger problem than Kodak experienced with the estar stock rollout with the dye layer seperating  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 05-19-2011 04:41 PM                     Interesting on the 3K because I had considered that. There were a few auditoriums that were running 7K lamps here in Dallas that were not using XeKote and had no issues. Similarly there was a couple of theaters where 2K was their biggest lamp with issues. The theater I was running at the time had 4K lamps (Strong without any heat filter). Anyway XeKote was the ONLY thing I could find that constituted a pattern. Maybe the Texas prints came from a different lab than the ones used in Canada?  |  IP: Logged Jim Henk Master Film Handler Posts: 364 From: San Diego, CA Registered: Feb 2006 posted 05-19-2011 11:16 PM                     It's obviously because Saturday is the end of the world. Things get like that when that happens. Rather annoying, really...  |  IP: Logged Mike Rivest Expert Film Handler Posts: 185 From: Montréal QC Canada Registered: Nov 2009 posted 05-20-2011 07:52 PM                     Too strong a bulb caused the fading?  |  IP: Logged Ian Parfrey Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1049 From: Imbil Australia 26 deg 27' 42.66" S 152 deg 42' 23.40" E Registered: Feb 2009 posted 05-20-2011 08:43 PM                     The lack of any embossing at all and that the image is affected in a random way and not over the whole width of the aperture would seem to eliminate hot spotting and/or over wattage of the bulb. It appears to me to look like an application of some sort of liquid or chemical which has contacted a certain spot on the image area and the takeup tension has spread this across the film. Whether this application was intentional or accidental is a point of conjecture. This theory can be tested by using a reel of scrap film and drip some liquid ink onto the film and run as per usual. There will be a similar kind of spotting as seen in the example. What do others think about this theory?  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 05-20-2011 08:52 PM                     Plausible. Worth a try.  |  IP: Logged Don Furr Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 509 From: Sun City, Ca USA Registered: Nov 2002 posted 05-20-2011 11:03 PM                     I sent the details to my film lab guy and he had the following comments: Looks very much like out-gassing to me. I wonder if this print was subject to any sort of "surface treatment", like Scotchguard OR if it was run with Filmguard for an extended period before being stored? When you permeate the emulsion of a film with a substance, and then wind it up tightly for "a few years" without occasional exercise, fluctuating temperatures and humidity can fade color dyes regardless of how "low fade' they are. Low fade only refers to properly stored films. Film needs to be exercised and breathe, and it needs to be stored in a stable environment. My guess. Don  |  IP: Logged Simon Wyss Film Handler Posts: 80 From: Basel, BS, Switzerland Registered: Apr 2011 posted 05-21-2011 02:07 AM                     Oil  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 05-21-2011 11:18 AM                     He said there was no Scotchguard or anything on the print. I also remind everyone that only some of the reels were affected. I find it impossible to believe a theater only cleaned selected reels. As far as FilmGuard, I've got various test reels of film going back to around 1990 on all types of film stocks (including a bunch from this era when the industry started switching to polyester base) with no degredation. Keep the guesses coming. So far the only plausible explanation is that the lab did something in processing that caused selected reels to degrade over time. Ian and Simon's theory is good except again, not all reels were affected (and that would have been one heck of a leaky projector to put a constant drip in the center of the image like that).  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 05-21-2011 12:18 PM                     Okay, okay... Since the movie in question is CONTACT, let us consider Occam's razor... Isn't it possible that a perfect print was loaned out to someone who then swapped out good reels and replaced them with misprinted reels? This has been known to happen, y'know...  |  IP: Logged Ian Parfrey Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1049 From: Imbil Australia 26 deg 27' 42.66" S 152 deg 42' 23.40" E Registered: Feb 2009 posted 05-21-2011 03:44 PM                     I have had a very close look at this clip and noticed that the fading occurs in a regular pattern. This to me indicates there may be a relationship with the fading and it's position on the reel. Rough timing tells me that this section of 'Contact' is occurring near the beginning of a 6000 foot spool - assuming a 35mm print - and this is seen reasonably clearly in the opening scenes at around 0:16, so it's my next guess that this reel may have been stored in close proximity to a gas releasing agent or other chemical, perhaps in a spool cabinet. Here in Oz, there was for a time a line of thought that by placing a bag of either silica gel or napthalene flakes in a can with the film, that this was 'supposed' to stop deterioration of the print. Just what deterioration this was supposed to stop escapes me at the moment but that 'rythymic pulsing' of the damage here does not indicate to me any lab problem. I'm convinced it's a post-lab issue.  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 05-21-2011 04:31 PM                     Interesting, but if this happened while the reel was still wound onto itself, shouldn't we expect to see the worst damage along the edges? How/why would the center of the image deteriorate first?  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 05-21-2011 10:33 PM                     This clip was from reel 4. Apparently 6, 7 and 8 also had the same issue. If this was stored on a 6000 foot spool, then why wasn't reel 5 affected? (Or for that matter reel 3, depending on how it was built-up?) If this was stored on 2000' reels, then it still doesn't add up.  |  IP: Logged Ian Parfrey Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1049 From: Imbil Australia 26 deg 27' 42.66" S 152 deg 42' 23.40" E Registered: Feb 2009 posted 05-22-2011 02:01 AM                     That's THAT theory blown. It's got me stumped.  |  IP: Logged Frank Angel Film God Posts: 5305 From: Brooklyn NY USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-22-2011 03:31 AM                        I still think it is a lab issue as per Fred and Mark. The fact that it wasn't noticed years ago when the print was new doesn't mean that some of the reels were not process properly, only that the error was not immediately apparent. There are two factors that could be in play if a lab had not processed some reels propertly -- time, which would allow the errant chemicals to slowly affect the dyes, and the light radiation -- needn't necessarily be excessive enough to cause visible emulsion damage, but just normal within normal heat tolerances, but the light itself could simply accelerated deterioration of the dyes, and only on those improperly processed reels. Luckily it doesn't seem to be anything inherant in properly processed LPP emulsion or we would see a lot more of it, no?  |  IP: Logged

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