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This topic comprises 2 pages: 1 2
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Topic: 70MM Magnetic Surround Channels
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Martin Brooks
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 900
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: May 2002
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posted 05-03-2017 08:33 PM
quote: Paul Linfesty
Ironically, the Ziegfeld's original surround speaker array was flush-mounted into the ceiling, a popular speaker location for many theatres of that era.
How reliable is that recollection because that's not what I remember, but I can't say my own recollections are clear from before the Dolby era. I went to the movies at the Ziegfeld regularly from the time they presented Cabaret (in mono) in 1972. But they were equipped for 70mm discrete stereo from the time it opened in December of 1969 with "Marooned".
For the original run of "Close Encounters" they bolted the screen speakers to 3/4" plywood fronts, added 8 Cerwin Vega baby earthquakes and used 21 Bose 901 surrounds. One of the top five movie experiences of my life.
---
And yes, the Ziegfeld presented Apocalypse Now in split surround. The sound was spectacular. My wife wasn't into advanced presentation like I was and when we were sitting there waiting for the film to start, she wondered if it was worth the hassle of going into Manhattan to see the film and just as she said that, the soundtrack started with The Doors "The End" and she turned to me and said, "it's worth it!"
The mix on the Blu-ray doesn't sound anywhere near as good as it sounded that night at the Ziegfeld. At least that's how I remember it.
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 05-04-2017 08:37 AM
Far field and near field mixes aside, I feel like the sound systems in most commercial theater auditoriums are really under-powered. They can get loud, even painfully loud, in the upper high frequency bands. But they're almost always lacking in the lower registers and sub-bass.
I rarely ever encounter a commercial theater that can thump the air inside my chest. Perhaps some of this is from customer complaints, demanding the volume be turned down to a lower, less-startling level. It's also probably from corner cutting on the walls separating each auditorium. We don't have anything like THX mandating certain levels of wall treatment. It's 100% up to theater operators how much or how little they're willing to invest in isolating the audio in one room from audio in the others.
Regarding 10-15Hz sub-bass tones in Edge of Tomorrow, I'm actually willing to bet very few drivers got blown by that (if the tones were actually getting that low). Very few sub-bass enclosures can actually put out sub-bass that low. I've seen certain high end sub-bass speakers claim sub-bass response down to 8Hz. Most only get down to about the 30Hz level. For ridiculously over-driven sub-bass, I usually recall some early DVDs with THX "Broadway" trailers; certain discs had this trailer over-driven enough I had to turn down the volume or chapter-past it.
I remember Edge of Tomorrow having a really good Atmos mix, but I wasn't particularly impressed with the sub-bass. That probably had more to do with the design of the theater's sound system than what was actually in the mix.
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Martin Brooks
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 900
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: May 2002
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posted 06-02-2017 09:52 AM
quote:
I remember as a kid seeing the 70mm presentation (and have confirmed with multiple others) that when the strings of the opening theme went to the full orchestral ffff note with the white flash, it was so loud and jarring that audiences gasped/screamed followed by some nervous laughter.
Yet, no home video presentation nor any theatrical rerelease has duplicated that -
I don't remember that, but what I do remember in the original version is that near the end of the film when the glass blows out in the observation tower, the sound appeared to come from the right surrounds, even though the 70mm had mono surrounds. It was so loud, yet so clear in the presentation at the Ziegfeld in NYC, everyone in the audience turned their heads because it really sounded like something crashed down off the walls. It doesn't sound like that in the Blu-ray mix, but almost no Blu-ray 5.1 or 7.1 mix I've ever heard has ever sounded like my recollection of the 70mm mix (putting aside for a moment the fact that I saw those films with much younger and healthier ears). That's true for "West Side Story", "2001", "Close Encounters...", "Star Wars", "Apocalypse Now" and many others.
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Frank Angel
Film God
Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 06-03-2017 01:45 AM
Martin, I was lucky enough to see CLOSE ENCOUNTERS at the Ziegfeld and I do know and Martin verifies it, that the sound for that engagement was indeed a special setup. Having seen many other 70mm titles at that venerable grand lady, the sound for CE had the impact that it did because of the added Sensurround boxes. Noting I had ever heard before in that theater compared. When a sound system is enhanced for a specific title, unless you are able to duplicate that same configuration at home or even in another cinema, it's never going to sound quite as good.
And the question of aging hearing aside, even if you were deaf, it wasn't a matter of hearing the opening chord in CEo3rdK when he pointed to the heavens, that chord drop-kicked you in the effin chest and stomach -- same with the glass shattering on that deep quaver note -- it was 90% tactile. Give me some Cerwin Vega Sensurround bins for my living room and I bet I'll be able to duplicate it.
There is no question with the right installation designed very specifically for a particular room with its unique acoustic characteristics and designed to play back a SPECIFIC film soundtrack with the techs KNOWING the soundtrack intimately as well as the result they want, not only the overall film soundtrack, but they know what they want a specific sequence to accomplish via the sound.
They did the same thing with LION KING at Radio City Music Hall -- Disney engineers put in floor to ceiling bins on either side of the screen and when the elephants came bounding across the screen and a sheet-load of wall surrounds and massive point source line arrays in the rear corners kicked in, I can assure you, the effect was not much different that if you were standing just a few feet from a real pack of charging elephants or the herd of stampeding wildebeests. You know it didn't sound that impressive in most other theatres, even the ones with very decent systems because no one else had the advantage of a special $200,000 sound system installation with the best people in the industry tweaking it for THEIR film in THAT venue.
As for the first time.... as Sam says, quote: Sam D. Chavez
You can't duplicate the experience of an epic film seen and heard for the first time on a big screen. No matter how good the home screen, you're trying to repeat the experience and the memory of the first time.
...that goes for just about all our first experiences...just like the first time with your first love.
PS on Sensurround installs in the early days of EARTHQUAKE -- yes your the cells in your body vibrated and it made you feel like the connective stuff that holds those cells together was going to fly apart and so would you... it was spectacular. I saw it in Chicago in some massive theatre in the Loop and also in NY for a total of 5 times. The problem with Sensurround was the bins moved so much air that it caused the rest of the soundtrack coming from the stage speakers to sound like the speaker were placed behind a fan. When you get a chance, have someone stand behind a fan and see what it sounds like. I never heard that particular problem either with CE or the LION KING setups.
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