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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » How many "endless loop" systems were in use during film's heyday? (Page 2)

 
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Author Topic: How many "endless loop" systems were in use during film's heyday?
Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-19-2018 03:00 PM      Profile for Mike Blakesley   Author's Homepage   Email Mike Blakesley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
OK just to cut through the Quora clutter, I'll reproduce the whole conversation here.

Original question and this guy's answer:

quote:
Q. Do movie theaters still use traditional reels, or do they just use DVDs?

A. There are still theaters that use reels of film for projection but they are becoming fewer are and far between. The multiplexes will have a certain small percentage of the theaters equipped only for film. It’s just too expensive to maintain and only the old-timers know how to keep things running. Plus the film print itself is expensive to print, ship and splice together for an automated film projector system. They usually come in 5 or 6 20 minute (really heavy) reels and get spliced together into one giant 90 or 120 minute pancake so no rewinding or swapping of projectors. Just one long continuous loop…

I’ve seen some theaters setup consumer high end digital projectors for live events (they have to switch out the lenses because the throw of typical consumer projectors are too short).

DVDs/Blurays are only used for private one time only functions (festivals as such). If a non-affiliated theater has a retrospective series they may get/have some proprietary playback or even separate full-coat mag sound sync setups but those are really rare.

Because of security issues, proprietary portable hard drives are now the standard. They are shipped in a portable lock-box (similar to a handgun safe) from the film distributor and plugged into a custom closed digital projection system. It’s like a mini Fort Knox with multi-redundant safeguards against tampering.

The sad thing is most of the movies you see are no better than the standard Bluray you see at a big box store, and sometimes it’s worse. It seems that you can fool most of the people some of the time, some of the people all the time… yet they still stay in business. My experience with IMAX-3D Avatar was a sorely disappointing experience. That was the last time I paid to go to a movie. Oh well, happy watching.

Then my reply:

quote:
Almost no commercial theaters used “continuous loop” film systems. By far the most common film system was the platter system, where all the reels were spliced together (as you say), but the film had to be re-threaded through the projector for each show.

The main use for continuous loop systems was venues where the same film would be exhibited thousands and thousands of times, such as in a theme park application.

I’m sorry you find the theatrical experience no better than a standard Blu-Ray, but that may be because you’re not looking at the whole package. The picture in a theater is many times bigger than you can get at home; in fact the whole room being much bigger is the best part of the theater experience, for me at least. If your theater has a great sound system and a good presentation, that’s an unbeatable combination. If you’re stuck with a low-quality theater, that’s a sad situation for you.

His reply to my answer:

quote:
Well, I have to respectfully disagree here. The theaters I’ve gone to all use continuous loop platter systems (It surprised me when I first saw this too). When a multiplex setup has one projectionist running 10 (or more) theaters (6 or 7 running 35mm films) there is no way to keep up threading and re-threading projectors all day every day. Continuous loop systems also increase the over all reliability of projection (limited human intervention and as you mentioned “venues where the same film would be exhibited thousands and thousands of times” implies higher reliability) so the customers have a much better experience.

There also seems to be a mis-conception that the larger the room/screen the better the experience. If you enjoy the interaction of the audience with the movie then yes the theater would be the way to go. Other than that the home movie experience can be had with a well setup home theater system that is easily better than 90–95 percent of the multiplexes out there. Today’s large screen direct view home HDR 4K screens easily out performs EVERY carbon arc projection system in existence. A decent 5.1–7.1 sound system can achieve the same (if not greater) staging, dynamic and frequency range that the 20 year old theater sound systems can never even come close to.

So, save the handful of outstanding theaters (you can count them on your hands) in the world, the theater experience is inferior. It seems the folks who have never experienced a good home theater system (iPhone/iPad only experience?) have no idea that they could have it all at home (minus the real estate ads and audience).

So of course I couldn't let it die right there.... my reply (and so far, the end of the conversation):

quote:
I guess I will have to disagree with your disagreement. I’ve been a theater owner for almost 40 years and am a member of a couple of projectionist forums, and I can tell you that endless loop systems were definitely never a common thing. They are hard on film, and projectionists for the most part hated them due to all the problems that would crop up. Only a couple of chains used them, and even there, they weren’t usually in all auditoriums because only the longest-running films would be used with them.

It’s possible that you’re confusing “endless loop” systems (where there is no threading between shows) with standard platter systems, which you only have to thread once per show. Probably at least 90% of film theaters used standard platter systems, not the endless loop systems.

I’ll also have to disagree with your comment that one projectionist can’t keep up with 6 or 7 auditoriums running film off of standard platter systems. I know several projectionists who would disagree with you on that one, including a couple of guys who would routinely run 12-plexes and larger. Provided the shows are scheduled intelligently (not all starting at the same time), a good projectionist can thread a typical platter film system in a minute or less.

Your assertion that the “home experience” is better, well that just indicates the quality of the movie theaters in your area. No home system can ever compete with a well-calibrated theater system for picture and sound quality. (Of course “shoebox”-type mall theaters would be the exception to that.) The commercials are an irritation, I agree, but they are an economic necessity in today’s world — without them, concession prices would be even higher than they already are. Heck, even “Amazon Prime” now includes a commercial before every show.


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Justin Hamaker
Film God

Posts: 2253
From: Lakeport, CA USA
Registered: Jan 2004


 - posted 10-19-2018 04:48 PM      Profile for Justin Hamaker   Author's Homepage   Email Justin Hamaker   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The fact he thinks theatres still use carbon arcs takes away a good deal of his credibility. He clearly doesn't understand the realities of film projection as it stood just prior to the implementation of digital cinema.

I wonder if he's drawing his conclusion about the movie theatre from the fact that most are running 2K pictures where you can play 4K at home. While I like the idea of 4K at home, I find it's still somewhat limited in it's availability. Even if you are streaming 4K from Netflix or Amazon, you are still limited by bandwidth and the availability of 4K content.

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Tony Bandiera Jr
Film God

Posts: 3067
From: Moreland Idaho
Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted 10-19-2018 08:22 PM      Profile for Tony Bandiera Jr   Email Tony Bandiera Jr   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Laemmle Theatres in Southern California equipped virtually all of their screens with Christie ELF syatems..including a 5-deck one at the flagship Royal (only one deck was ELF, the other four were standard AW3.)

The chief projectionist worked closely with Christie and Clark Grites (hope I have the last name right) in working out the bugs with the ELF design...at one point I recall the Monica theatre having 3 or four different platter deck designs as they tried to find the best one.

The efforts paid off as in the end, the ELF became a pretty reliable system (though poly prints still gave it fits sometimes.)

I also personally equipped Knott's Berry Farms' Cloud Nine theatre with an ELF system to show the (horribly insipid) 3-D "Sea Dream" short film. I made up seven prints on the ELF for them so that each print ran once per day.

Ahhh, memories... [Big Grin]

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-20-2018 06:58 AM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The only time that I have seen these in operation is at MOMI in London in the late '90s. They had the Kinoton variant. It seemed to work well enough for them (continuous screenings all day as parts of museum exhibits). If I remember correctly, they required a specific minimum amount of film in order to function (i.e. if one wanted to screen a ten-minute short repeatedly, many prints of that short would need to be spliced together in order to reach that minimum footage requirement).

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Tony Bandiera Jr
Film God

Posts: 3067
From: Moreland Idaho
Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted 10-20-2018 09:33 AM      Profile for Tony Bandiera Jr   Email Tony Bandiera Jr   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That is correct. The ELF also had a minimum footage requirement to work properly (IIRC 4,000 feet). The seven "Sea Dream" prints were around 15,000 feet total.

Here is a great video of the Kinoton endless loop in action (try not to cringe at the poor threading of the FP-30).

Kinoton Endless Loop Wackiness

My only concern with the Kinoton version is those "claws" that constantly contact the film and do the cusps necessary to make the film the proper diameter to work...I can see that even the most minute amount of dirt on the film could make for some serious scratching action...scary. Otherwise I give it high marks for design and precision control of the film.

I have a video I produced and shot for a lecture on film technologies that I will someday get uploaded to my Youtube channel, it shows one of the ELF platters at the Monica running.

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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 10-23-2018 01:07 PM      Profile for Ken Lackner   Email Ken Lackner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well, I certainly stand corrected. Even after you explain to him how platters work he persists. Definitely loses credibility by continuing to insist that "there is no way for one projectionist to operate a 10 plex. (Why would there only be 6 or 7 prints running at a 10 plex? WTF?). We all know that is complete bull crap.

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Jack Ondracek
Film God

Posts: 2348
From: Port Orchard, WA, USA
Registered: Oct 2002


 - posted 10-23-2018 02:11 PM      Profile for Jack Ondracek   Author's Homepage   Email Jack Ondracek   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You wouldn't get a full feature out of a carbon trim, so something does seem strange about the subject.

As for endless loop anything: The only time I ever saw something like it was when I was paying my due to get into the Seattle union (around 1975). They sent me to a porn shop on 1st avenue that had a room full of reverse-screen booths, using endless loop 16mm machines, hooked up to quarter-driven timers. As long as you kept the film clean, the system worked pretty well. I had far more trouble with the timers than the projectors.

The rest of the story is probably best left to a separate thread.

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