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Author Topic: Nitrate handlers Richard May Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1057 From: Floral Park, NY USA Registered: Aug 2004 posted 12-01-2018 09:30 PM                     Lol. Thanks guys but I think I will have it taken away by someone to dispose of it. If I took it outside here, in the middle of NYC, you would probably see it on the news.  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 12-01-2018 10:13 PM                        Interesting. I've never encountered a nitrate element that was offgassing badly enough to make my eyes water. In fact, the only time I encountered one that was even sticky was as a student in film archiving school in 1995-96. I guess the reason is that I've never been in a job that brought me into contact with them. The little archive I ran from 2001-07 had a collection that was almost completely 1950s to 1990s. It had about 50 nitrate elements, all of them in good shape, and all the nitrate prints I've projected have been in excellent (chemically, at least) condition: if they hadn't been, the archives that owned them wouldn't have let them into my booth. However, it doesn't take much vinegar syndrome to make an acetate print set my eyes off. Once they've reached the autocatalytic point, a few weeks in a sealed can is all it takes, and boy do you smell, and feel it when you take the lid off! Many's the time that one gnarly print has stunk the booth out for days. For that reason, I tend to be instinctively more frightened of old acetate elements than of nitrate ones, which is pretty illogical, given that the nitrate could potentially be lethal (if it ignites), but not the acetate. quote: Richard May If I took it outside here, in the middle of NYC, you would probably see it on the news. Giggle. Here on the border with San Bernardino, I could probably set off a big rig full of the stuff, and people would just take a brief glance at it and mutter, "Oh well, there goes another meth lab..."  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-01-2018 10:45 PM                     quote: However, it doesn't take much vinegar syndrome to make an acetate print set my eyes off. Once they've reached the autocatalytic point, a few weeks in a sealed can is all it takes, and boy do you smell, and feel it when you take the lid off! We've got glacial acetic acid by the drumfull. Pretty pungent stuff! We've got a recipe for this stuff that's made up from 70% acetic acid, 15% nitric acid and 15% water. It's used to remove smut from copper and aluminum. I make it up 100 gallons at a time. A goodly whiff of the fumes that come off that stuff will knock you over backward. You have to wear full protective gear whenever you get near it. Although I'm not as much of an expert as Leo, I've worked with nitrate film on a couple of occasions. It can get nasty but not as nasty as some of the witch's brew that I work with now. If the film isn't valuable, if it's degrading and you just don't want it, don't bother to keep it around. It's too much of a hazard. Just get rid of it. The easiest and, probably, the best way to dispose of it is to burn it. That's likely what a disposal company will do. They'll just charge you an arm and a leg to do it. You can do it in small batches, a reel/roll at a time. I'd say that, under outdoor conditions, nitrate film burns similar to a road flare.  |  IP: Logged Richard May Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1057 From: Floral Park, NY USA Registered: Aug 2004 posted 12-02-2018 06:03 AM                     It may very well be vinegar syndrome smell from the non nitrate film that's in there as well.  |  IP: Logged Phillip Grace Expert Film Handler Posts: 164 From: ACMI. Melbourne. Australia. Registered: Mar 2004 posted 12-02-2018 05:39 PM                     Hi Richard. At least give a Film Archive the option to examine the films on site, before dumping them. Certainly old film can be very unpleasant to handle, but decomposition, particularly vinegar syndrome, which seems to be the main issue here, can be very advanced before the film itself becomes useless. This material is located at the Radio City Music Hall, a unique theatre and the long-term venue of many special events. There is a better than even chance that you have something special among the collection there. I am a firm believer in the notion that one should never throw anything away without knowing exactly what it is. In this case you can probably attract the interest of a collecting institution, with the added benefit of not having to get rid of it yourself. I understand that Eastman House is not far from there, likewise the Museum of Modern Art; Maybe give them a call. Cheers.  |  IP: Logged Dave Macaulay Film God Posts: 2321 From: Toronto, Canada Registered: Apr 2001 posted 12-03-2018 10:32 AM                     "Standard respirators don't work. The stuff is a gas. Respirators only work for particulates or vapors." Nope. Filters only work against particulates. Respirators absorb specific gases (a vapor is a gas). You would need to know what the problem gas is and get a cartridge designed for that gas. The typical ones available are designed for solvents, not much else. Generally air with a bit of acid vapor can be handled for a short time by breathing through a wet cloth but I would avoid that except in an emergency.  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-03-2018 06:41 PM                     quote: Dave Macaulay You would need to know what the problem gas is and get a cartridge designed for that gas. You're right. If you don't have the right cartridge for the vapor in question, a respirator won't work. In fact, it is possible for a respirator to concentrate harmful vapors inside the mask. At the place where I work, there can be chlorine and/or ammonia in the air. We do have cartridges to guard against those but they only last for a short time. They are, pretty much, a one-shot deal. Yes, I have occasionally resorted to breathing through my shirt when confronted with an unexpected cloud of acid vapor. It's enough to get a breath or two so that you can back out and regroup.  |  IP: Logged Gary Wachter Film Handler Posts: 21 From: Coppell, TX, USA Registered: Jul 2010 posted 12-12-2018 07:09 PM                     I had an opportunity to visit the nitrate bunker complex deep under Templehof Airport in Berlin last week. Millions of feet of film incinerated during the closing days of WWII. Source of ignition was never identified.  |  IP: Logged

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