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This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
Author Topic: My Show Goes Digital
Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 06-03-2002 09:01 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well as Brad can attest to, you shouldn't allow anything you shot to appear on America's Funniest Home Videos whether or not they have a logo onscreen. They will take your video and re-edit it to make it patheticly lame.


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Greg Anderson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 766
From: Ogden Valley, Utah
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 06-04-2002 12:59 AM      Profile for Greg Anderson   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Anderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've never brought up the subject but, quite simply, I can't remember anyone on the set (including actors, writers, producers, cinematographers, etc.) talk about logos during the broadcasts. On the other hand, I've heard gaffers and cinematographers griping all the time about how the picture they saw in dailies was much better than what they received on the TV in their living rooms. I don't know who drops the ball but somewhere between the initial transfer and what the local station is showing, colors, contrast and other details come out differently. So... I would say that the little logo in the corner of the screen is nothing compared to the overall disappointment with the picture.

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Adam Wilbert
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 590
From: Bellingham, WA, USA
Registered: Mar 2002


 - posted 06-04-2002 03:21 AM      Profile for Adam Wilbert   Author's Homepage   Email Adam Wilbert   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Greg said: I've heard gaffers and cinematographers griping all the time about how the picture they saw in dailies was much better than what they received on the TV in their living rooms.

Do shows/miniseries/etc. produced on film for television ever get any show-prints made? For instance, It would be amazing to see HBO's "Band of Brothers" on the theater screen. I don't know anything about television production, but it seems to me that somewhere between broadcast and DVD release would be a market for something like that. I'd be interested in booking it at least.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 06-04-2002 08:43 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Super-16 "done right" can look superb on HD television:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/news/16mmHDTV.shtml
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/story/start.shtml
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/forum/tv/

I frankly have NOT been impressed with the image quality of some shows originated on 24P HD video. IMHO, HD video just doesn't have the same ability as color negative film to hold highlight detail and subtle nuances in colors and fleshtones. I'll miss the "film look" on "Touched By an Angel", just as I did on "Diagnosis Murder" (which was not "saved" by their switch to 24P video production).

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Mark Ogden
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 943
From: Little Falls, N.J.
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-04-2002 11:24 AM      Profile for Mark Ogden   Email Mark Ogden   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It's not that a Super 16 to HD transfer looks bad of and by itself, but compared to a 35mm source element, it does not stack up nearly as well (an opinion, John, shared by your own Mr. Sparraza in a link above). The CBS philosophy was, "We're building a HiDef network feed, we're not going to do this half-assed, and if your show wants in, we want the best source element we can get". I saw both regular 16 and Super 16 footage of Touched By An Angel in an HD transfer performed by the Sony High Defination Center in Culver City. Compared to the 35mm footage, while not "night and day", it was certinly enough of a difference to take a stand over, which is what happened.

I make no illusions about the continued viability of Touched By An Angel as a going entertainment concern, and I do not insinuate that switching to HDCam will "save" the show if viewer interest wanes (which is what happened to Diagnosis Murder). That is strictly a cost saving ploy on the part of the producers, while still providing the network with an acceptable HD source.

Adam: 35mm theatrical prints of made-for-television material is a common occurence. HBO likes to present a lot of their stuff in cinemas during season premiere parites. They had a blow out at the Zeigfeld last year for Sex And The City, and they have run quite a few of their made-for-cable movies in theatres in the same fashion.


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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 06-04-2002 11:59 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That CBS work is fairly old, and led to quite a bit of discussion, with many feeling that Super-16 IS a viable production medium for HD television when a lower cost alternative to 35mm production is needed.

_____________________________________________________________________

"HDTV/Film Investigation

By Henry W. Mahler
CBS will be employing the 1125-line, 60-field HDTV format for the FCC-approved advanced television transmission system. Although a great deal of source material for this programming already exists on 35mm film, some episodic television series are currently filmed using 16mm. In addition, Super 16, with its wider aspect ratio and increased image area, has been advanced as a suitable acquisition format for HDTV. To determine the capability of 16mm film for HDTV transfer, CBS analyzed, measured, and performed tests to compare the performance of both 16mm formats to 35mm and an HDTV television camera. Objective measurement data and subjective observations are presented in this paper.

A contribution from Henry W. Mahler (paper no. 97-8), CBS Engineering, New York, NY 10019. Copyright © 1997 by the Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers, Inc."

_____________________________________________________________________

If Super-16 can be used for successful feature films on a big theatre screen (e.g., "Monsoon Wedding"), it certainly should be able to provide excellent image quality on a much smaller HD monitor in the home.

Irregardless, I personally find the tonality and color rendering of color negative film to be preferable, even when viewed on television.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Dave Williams
Wet nipple scene

Posts: 1836
From: Salt Lake City, UT, USA
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 06-04-2002 12:27 PM      Profile for Dave Williams   Author's Homepage   Email Dave Williams   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This is to Scott Norwoods comment about certain shows in the nineties using film because of worries of the archival problems of videos.

This reminds me of the I Love Lucy show way way back. The studio wanted to shoot on video, as were most of the shows back there shot. However, Dezi Arnez demanded film and the studio said no way. So he paid for the film out of his own pocket in exchange for the rights for re-broadcast after original airing. The studio saw no harm in this, and alas... a new medium was born... syndication!

Dave

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Paul Mayer
Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under!

Posts: 3836
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Feb 2000


 - posted 06-04-2002 01:03 PM      Profile for Paul Mayer   Author's Homepage   Email Paul Mayer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Greg mentioned the crew comments about the differences between what they see in dailies and what they see at home. I used to hear comments like that all the time, and the stuff I did was just NTSC video origination--not even Super16. Visitors to the truck would look at the pictures on my match monitor and wonder outloud why it didn't look like that at home.

Of course they forgot they were looking at live first-generation NTSC pictures at 700 lines resolution (Ikegami cameras with Fujinon lenses). And they were looking at those pictures on an $8500 Sony match monitor that used Conrac-standard phosphors in its CRT and was flat to 10MHz even in the corners. By the time those pictures get home, they've been rolled off in the transmitter to a max of 330 lines or so. And probably viewed on an uncalibrated, relatively cheap display that uses who knows what for color decoding and phosphors, with black levels that are anything but retained. So I can understand how folks who work so hard to make film images for TV would feel a bit cheated when they see their work at home. One left-handed benefit of HD production is that there will be less of a difference between what is seen in dailies and what is seen at home.


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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 06-04-2002 02:15 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I recall a recent SMPTE conference where Kodak showed a HD (Spirit Telecine) transfer of an old B&W Fred Astaire movie. IMHO, except for being B&W, that 60+ year old film had image quality that surpassed the best of live HD cameras being shown on the exhibit floor. Remember that when you enjoy a DVD of "Casablanca" or "Gone With the Wind", or better yet, see them again in a theatre.

Many of the early video shows (unless they were kinescoped onto film)are lost:

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/story/fact2.shtml

I haven't seen one yet, but I would venture to say that HD transfers of "I Love Lucy" are going to look darn good.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Jesse Skeen
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1517
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: Aug 2000


 - posted 06-04-2002 07:39 PM      Profile for Jesse Skeen   Email Jesse Skeen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I find it VERY depressing that at least on this show there haven't been many objections to the onscreen logo nonsense. I did receive a letter from The Simpsons production office when I wrote Fox when they started doing this, letting them know I would no longer watch their network as long as that kept up, and the letter said they did not like seeing their show ruined and thanked me for helping the effort to get rid of it. Sadly that was years ago and Fox is still doing it (at least when I check, I've never watched an entire show on any network that does this) and Matt Groening even decided to do a new show for Fox as well.
TV as a medium is dead as far as I'm concerned. Onscreen logos reduce the dramatic impact of any show to that of a test pattern.
BTW the oldest videotaped recording I've seen is the final Howdy Doody episode from 1960, which is available on DVD and shown just about exactly as it was broadcast. The picture is a bit fuzzy but is still remarkably clear enough to mistake for a live broadcast. The disc has 3 other episodes, including one with a "living color" intro but are all black-and-white kinescopes, the final show may be the only one they saved on tape.


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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 06-05-2002 08:04 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Adam,

Many years ago my theater ran a print in our big house of a new TV show. I can't remember what it was called, but it had Lance Henrickson (sp?) who was "Bishop" in Aliens. It was a Fox show. The print was 1.33 (I think, I have a hard time remembering), but we had 1.33 masking in the big house available to us and we definitely used that. The show didn't last long, but it was very dark. Details you could only see on film! We showed the pilot episode one night before it aired on the boob tube.


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Adam Wilbert
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 590
From: Bellingham, WA, USA
Registered: Mar 2002


 - posted 06-06-2002 03:32 AM      Profile for Adam Wilbert   Author's Homepage   Email Adam Wilbert   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Joe: That'd be Millenium. I loved that show while it was on, but would have to watch it in the dark in order to see everything. Or at least what I thought was everything. Thats it, damnit, i'm moving!

BTW: I love it when your imitation picture follows the person being spoofed. Why don't you have a weenie-man pic?!

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