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Topic: No Blu-Ray DVD?

Mark J. Marshall
Film God

Posts: 3188
From: New Castle, DE, USA
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 12-22-2004 12:10 PM

Thomas,

You forgot about 3D. You'd need SIX disks. Three for the left eye and three for the right.

And while we're at it, lets make one dedicated for sound. That will make it seven disks.

Good idea! [Big Grin]

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Jesse Skeen
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1517
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 12-22-2004 01:31 PM

If they really do put out 2 different HD formats, it will be the dumbest thing to happen since VHS vs. Beta. DVD-Audio and SACD are already confusing the public enough, and most are responding by saying no to both of them. Luckily you can buy players that can play both DVD-Audio and SACD; I don't have one though because my receiver doesn't have discrete analog inputs which you need for those formats. If there's 2 HD formats, I'll wait until either one kills off the other, or they make a player that handles both.
I don't think the market can handle more than one disc format at a time- when CED and Laserdisc were both out, neither sold very well. When DVD was being developed I read a lot of speculation that laserdisc and DVD would probably co-exist for a while, but look what happened- the LD market was small to begin with and DVD ended up killing most of it right away.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 12-22-2004 11:50 PM

Just about every type of digital technology has competing formats. Look at the computer industry. Disk drives: IDE, SATA, SCSI, Fiberchannel. Flash memory: CF, SD, MMC, Microdrive, etc. I could go on and on with that industry alone. The coexistence of X-Box, PS2 and Gamecube was previously noted. How about Dolby Digital, DTS and (to a lesser extent) SDDS? Some DVD players handle both SACD and DVD-A discs.

Anyway, there is really very little evidence out there to suggest HD-DVD and Blu Ray cannot coexist in the same market. But the trick to it really is electronics companies offering players that can handle both formats. I think that is the key. Phillips Electronics (one of the Blu Ray partners) has eluded to doing this very thing. I would expect Pioneer to do the same since they have typically led the pack on "universal" format players. They were first to market with DVD-A/SACD compatible players. They were amongst the first to offer DVD-R/RW and DVD+R/RW in a single drive. Hopefully features like DVD-A/SACD capability will be offered in next-gen HD-based disc players. That would provide more incentive to get consumers to upgrade.

I think "universal" format players are also the only sensible way for a format war to sort itself out between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. At least it is the only way where customers won't get penalized for buying into the format that eventually loses. If people like Blu-Ray discs more then they will sell better and force those wanting to release only with HD-DVD to change their release policy.

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Dylan Marchetti
Film Handler

Posts: 27
From: New York, NY
Registered: Oct 2004

posted 12-23-2004 03:30 AM

quote: Bobby Henderson
I haven't heard anything about HD-DVD and Blu-Ray supporting uncompressed LPCM surround. It especially seems very unlikely under the HD-DVD format, given its rather paltry 15Mb/s peak bitrate maximum (which is only half the average bitrate of D-VHS).

That would be a shame. I admit haven't been following the HD-DVD specs closely- I figured it would fade away Divx-style in the face of the market penetration Sony's going to pull off with the Playstation 3. But 15Mb/s? That seems like a very small improvement for the investment that's going to be required on everyone's part.

Blu-Ray will almost certainly have the room to pull off at least one uncompressed 5.1 track, and I'll be irritated if it doesn't. Still, I don't hold much hope for this hitting the mainstream like DVD did based on what I'm hearing- I'm thinking more along the lines of SACD or MiniDisc.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 12-27-2004 12:36 AM

I haven't seen the complete specs for HD-DVD and Blu Ray to be able to tell if there is some capability for LPCM 5.1/6.1. Some of this will depend on the hardware in the players themselves. I don't know the bandwidth limits for a standard fiber-optic or coaxial digital audio connection, but my understanding is LPCM 5.1 would be too much for it. So you need some wider bandwidth connector, such as IEEE-1394 Firewire. Then you need a surround receiver with similar connections. It's either that or you have to go the DVD-A route and send out a converted 5.1 analog signal to the receiver instead.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 12-28-2004 07:24 PM

Of course the high definition DVD formats won't hit mainstream. HD itself has to become mainstream before that can happen. Lots of people are freaking out about a huge-ass format war that will matter to only the 19 or 20 people who actually have HDTVs.

Standard definition rules! Low-res FOREVER!

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Paul Mayer
Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under!

Posts: 3836
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Feb 2000

posted 02-15-2005 12:32 PM

Toei and Toho (the two largest studio/distributor/theater owners in Japan) announced they are joining the BDA. Hopefully this means J-film fans can look forward to some good repertoire titles on disc in a couple of years. Linky linky

So the current tally (I think) is:

HD-DVD:
Disney
New Line
Paramount
Time Warner
Universal

BD:
Bandai Visual
Fox
MGM
Sony Pictures
Toei Pictures
Toho Pictures

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 02-15-2005 01:42 PM

Aside from where studios are aligning themselves, I have strong concerns about the hardware features of the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players. They raise some of the same issues I have with the current crop of HDTV monitors. For instance, there's still a lot of monitors on the market that have no HDMI inputs or support for that "5C" copy protection flag. That goes along with my gripe about very very few featuring 1920 X 1080 native pixels in the display.

What kind of audio and video connectors will we see in these players? Hopefully they'll have the most up to date HDMI digital outputs along with component video output. HDMI can also transfer digital audio. But standard coaxial and fiber optic connections will still be needed as well. And what about S-Video and composite outputs for backward compatibility with existing NTSC televisions? Unless a lot of those things are incorporated into the player designs they won't sell very well at all.

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Bruce Hansen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 847
From: Stone Mountain, GA, USA
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 02-16-2005 12:42 PM

quote: Phil Hill
high-def discs are considered by tech experts to be nearly invulnerable, which could put a dent in film piracy.

Isn't this the same thing they said about DVDs, before they were hacked? It is just a matter of time before anything gets hacked.

quote: Bobby Henderson
I don't know the bandwidth limits for a standard fiber-optic or coaxial digital audio connection, but my understanding is LPCM 5.1 would be too much for it.

Full bandwidth HD-SDI at 1.5 GHz is sent over 75 ohm coax in broadcast and production houses, and can go several hundred feet without re-clocking. Full bandwidth 5.1 ch. audio should be no problem.

I do not understand why fiber is used in short haul consumer stuff. There is just no reason for it. Coax works just fine, and you don't have to change electronic signals to light, then back again at the other end. To me, any signal conversions are a bad idea, unless there is a reason for it. Besides, the consumer plastic fiber is CRAP. You cannot use more than 75 feet of it before the signal goes away. Digital audio on coax can be run 100s of feet (if not 1000s).

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 02-16-2005 02:54 PM

HDSDI can be sent up to about 290 feet or so IF you use good cable (3GHz stuff), IF the source is up to spec, IF the HDSDI input is up to spec, IF your cable run does not flex the cable so much (tight radius) that capacitance of the cable changes.

I've run into an HDSDI run that wouldn't make it 100-feet due to the input device being so finiky. The nice thing is that you can reclock it and send it on its way. HDSDI can also have 8-channels of audio sitting on it too.

That said...I don't know why the AV world didn't go to SD-SDI and HD-SDI in favor of analog 5-wire...just for sheer convienance cost of installation. Running 5-wires of mini-coax is more expensive than one run of RG-6. Patch bays are also much more simple when it is just one coax being switched versus 5.

As to the TOS link thing...for consumers, it is a ground loop thing. You run a TOS link cable and there will be Zero grounding issues in the audio. Other than that...yes there is little reason for running a fiber optic cable over a copper one. TOSLINK cables have come down in price so you don't have to spend a fortune. I also perfer the connection of the TOSLINK connector to the RCA (aka phono) connector...the TOSLINK is a much more solid "click" in. I like BNCs much better but try to get a consumer to work with a twist-lock connector and you will have a lot of pulled out cables on your hand. Stupid, but a fact of life. You'll note that the pros use BNC mostly. Fiber can be good for long clean (hum free) runs and they take up less space than coax.

Steve

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 02-16-2005 05:35 PM

It is interesting what they call "coaxial" as far as home digital audio is concerned. It is nothing more than a composite video jack, or a single RCA audio jack. You can use the cheapest composite cable you can find and it will still work fine and dandy.

I laugh at "pros" who use BNC for their composite video connections. They think they are the shizznit for using BNC, but they are STILL only using composite. Joke's on them.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 02-16-2005 07:50 PM

Not really Joe,

As far as the connector goes...the BNC offers a secure connector (won't just fall out) that is easily installed (more so than an RCA) and maintains the 75-Ohm impedance, even though barrel splices (if the correct connector is used.

Even with just lowly composite, signal integrety is signal integrity. Send a multiburst signal in one end, look at it on the other...everything that signal goes though (including the cable) will have a notable downgrading affect to the signal.

Composite is often used (in professional circles) for monitor feeds (with "super" and without time code information) and is often viewed just black and white. However, the signal needn't be degraded by the installation materials. A monitor feed is a representation of the presentation signal. It need not be perfect. It is cheaper to run composite (and entirely adequate) for monitor feeds than S, Component or 5-wire. Especially when you get a sophisticated switching system involved.

If you are just talking about a few feet of cable...sure you could run most anything and it would work just fine (connector or cable).

As to composite for other uses....it is the least common denominator...every piece of video gear supports it so one always must support it. It is also easy for brain-dead end-users to deal with...it has just the one cable.

You can't use S-Video...it keeps falling out of the connector. Component is right out...three different cables that must be connected to particular colors with the green one going to the terminal labeled "Y"...no way the average non-techie type is going to deal with that. 5-Wire? Sure, if it is on a VGA connector but that is starting to be a problem for the higher resolutions and frequencies...the VGA connector doesn't maintain the 75-Ohm impedance...again not a big deal for short runs. However, you now have a switching situation in that not all sources (well almost none but computers) are outputting 5-wire and the cost of cable and switchers (or patch bays) goes up geometrically.

So, composite will work for everybody...does it look like crap? You bet. Does using improper materials make it look worse? You bet...over a long enough run in a big enough system.

Kinda comes back to my "why don't folks use the SDI or HDSDI" for the various grades of signals. They are single coax solutions that look as good as their analog counterparts. I once had to run a little jumper for HDSDI (out of one component into another in the same area) with an 18" long cable...the guy I was doing this for asked if the cable was rated for HDSDI (it wasn't) but I told him that for 18", you could run even HDSDI in free air with single conductors and it wouldn't matter. The jumpers worked just fine

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Adam Wilbert
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 590
From: Bellingham, WA, USA
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 02-18-2005 03:00 AM

From this month's Maximum PC:

quote: Maximum PC, March 04, p12
JVC has created a three-layer optical disc that has a 25GB blu-ray layer on top, with a dual-layer 8.5GB sandwich beneath. It can be used as a standard piece of DVD media today, and then as Blu-ray media once that technology becomes more widespread

If they can do this, whats stopping studios from releasing dual-format discs that have both blu-ray and HD-DVD?

[ 02-20-2005, 02:45 AM: Message edited by: Adam Wilbert ]

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Don Cross
Film Handler

Posts: 97
From: Charleston, WV, USA
Registered: Jan 2005

posted 02-20-2005 10:10 PM

Also, if they are capable of doing this in the near future; I have to wonder how long it'll be before it makes it to the computer market. I'll have to check the quoted article and see if a link is possible.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 02-21-2005 06:46 PM

The computer market already has plans of adopting Blu-Ray. Dell has announced their support of the format and may be shipping Blu-Ray burners by year's end or sometime in 2006. I could be wrong about this, but I could have sworn I read a tidbit about Apple being supportive of the Blu-Ray format as well. It would only make sense for computer industry types to support this format since it has more "forward looking" technologies and much larger data capacities.

It's already a given Sony Playstation 3 will feature a Blu-Ray disc drive. There are rumors that X-Box 2 may as well.

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