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Author Topic: Are there any camcorder formats that allow real HD resolutions? Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-30-2007 06:29 PM                     Joe, Some digital still cameras do that same thing, my old Canon DV camcorder also does this and a slight ND filter takes care of it. Try using a .2 or .4 ND filter over the lens. This should bring the incomming light within the range that the CCD sensor is able to cope with. Many don't have a very wide cmpensation range as they come. Mark  |  IP: Logged Mike Carro Film Handler Posts: 67 From: Tempe, Az USA Registered: Nov 1999 posted 08-31-2007 12:36 PM                        The reason for the HDV format is because there's too much info that needs to be recorded on such a small tape. Tape width and speed determine data capabilities. Only so much you can get a miniDV tape. But the great thing about the Canon Xl-H1 and the JVC GY-HD250U is that while you can record HDV onto tape you can also record via HD-SDI out to a Deck or Mass Storage. Which will give you full HD resolution at 4:2:2 colorspace. But for this convenience you're going to pay upwards of $9000. I've had the pleasure of working with most of the prosumer HD cameras and the Sony F900 which is a full 1920x1080P to tape camera. The tapes are about $35 each so, not for everyday use needless to say. I would have to say that if you're willing to shell out that kind of money, go with the canon. It has the best picture because of it's native 1440 X 1080 chips which they up-rez to 1920 X 1080. Canon uses their "frame mode" to simulate 24P but I can tell you you really can't tell the difference. From what I can gather it is a progressive scan image but in order to put it on tape they interlace it. So, if you were going to film you be able to capture that frame in its entirety. That said, I wouldn't use the canon for production. It's just not made for that purpose. You can't really guarantee focus because it's all done by a servo motor. For a more pro application I would go with the JVC. It has more professional functionality. Again mainly because of the lens. You can attach a follow focus and matte boxes which you can't really with the Canon. But alas it's only 1280 x 720. But has really nice 60P recording in SD for slow motion. The Panasonic HVX-200 is a nice camera and takes great pictures but it doesn't do HDV to tape. It uses the P2 cards which are tricky to use at best. And, it isn't a true HD camera. Meaning the CCD's are only 800x600 uprezed to 1280 X 720. Still it has a great picture. And the 1080P is pseudo. So, even though video production is my business I don't own an HD camera. I'm still using SD cameras. There just isn't enough of a demand for HD yet. If I have a HD shoot I rent. I hope Canon makes the leap and offers a more professional model for it's prosumers because it really has nice pictures. \ My 2 cents on HDV and HD  |  IP: Logged Paul Gordon Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 580 From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Registered: Aug 2005 posted 09-15-2007 08:00 AM                        The HVX200 is DVCPRO HD not the very compressed HDV format that records onto Minidv tapes. Its native 920 x 720 progressive and can do 24 frames. It is in fact a true HD format with a 4:2:2 color space. The P2 cards are great because you no longer have moving parts, so camera noise is next to nothing. The camera can so do frame rates from 2 frames a second to 60. This camera is your best bet for a low cost "film look" overwise shoot some super 8 film and get it transfered to a HD res file.  |  IP: Logged Mike Carro Film Handler Posts: 67 From: Tempe, Az USA Registered: Nov 1999 posted 09-15-2007 02:07 PM                        Hey Paul, I agree that the HVX200 is a true HD format and doesn't even record HDV but I beg to differ on the actual area of their CCDs They are 960x540 pixels and use spatial offset to resolve 1280 x 720.( I was mistaken on the previous post about the CCD resolution) I do think it is a very good camera but not true HD resolution.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 09-15-2007 06:18 PM                        920x720 is 100% unacceptable for high definition. Who the hell shoots in 4:3 anymore, anyway?  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 09-16-2007 02:46 AM                     The videotape part of the equation is going to be eliminated pretty soon. Some applications, such as Adobe OnLocationCS3, are already geared for direct video recording onto hard disc. That's just a temporary interim solution. Before too long, just about any camcorder is going to have its own built in hard drive, a hard drive without any stupid limits imposed by crude videotape formats. You'll be shooting true 1080p video and be able offload that footage via some kind of wide data pipe whether it's Firewire 800, eSATA or something else. Still, the "broadcast quality" cameras will still stand above all the consumer stuff by virtue of larger and more effectively sensitive CCDs or CMOS chips. I don't see any possibility of companies like Sony, Panasonic, Canon or JVC selling 2/3" sized CCDs in mainstream consumer cameras at a price regular people can afford. That also goes double for the lens packs. But 1080p, however compromised, will be a common thing for consumers before too long.  |  IP: Logged Paul Gordon Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 580 From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Registered: Aug 2005 posted 09-16-2007 10:45 AM                        720p is a 16 by 9 format and a lot of HD TV channels use that format including FOX. Your other option is 1080i. No channels currently broadcast at 1080P. And there is no cheap (under $100,000) camera that shoots a true 1080P. I truly don't know hat all the HD fuss is about, it really comes all down to story. People will watch Hi8 blown up to 35mm as long as the story pulls them along and the sound is good. Digital HD cable is so compressed anyway...  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 09-16-2007 04:59 PM                        "and the sound is good"? Screw the sound, it's all about the story. This is why I never bothered to give a good presentation even once at my theaters.  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 09-17-2007 09:43 AM                     quote: Paul Gordon 720p is a 16 by 9 format and a lot of HD TV channels use that format including FOX. Your other option is 1080i. No channels currently broadcast at 1080P. Over the air broadcast is far from being the only application for HD. Just about every movie released on both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray formats is native 1080p. I have never seen any disc in either of those formats that was mere 720p or 1080i. quote: Paul Gordon And there is no cheap (under $100,000) camera that shoots a true 1080P Sony has a couple HDCAM models that shoot true 1080p that cost well under $100,000. They're still not cheap, certainly not priced in the easily affordable area for broadcast people (under $10,000) or in the "prosumer" category (under $5000). All of this will change very radically over the next few years. Computing technology is improving at an incredible pace. A few years ago it was a pretty big hurdle for a reasonably well equipped computer to capture MiniDV footage without dropping frames. A decent computer today is more than fast enough to have no problem whatsoever in dealing with 1080p video content. CCDs and CMOS devices are growing ever faster and getting packed in with more and more pixel sensors. The pace of improvement is relentless. Eventually the only place where one will find compromised HD formats like 720p and 1080i is in over the air broadcasts that have to fit within 6MHz of broadcast spectrum. Anything delivered by a digital wire will be 1080p. quote: Paul Gordon I truly don't know hat all the HD fuss is about, it really comes all down to story. People will watch Hi8 blown up to 35mm as long as the story pulls them along and the sound is good. Digital HD cable is so compressed anyway... That sounds like the rationale from someone with lower tech HD gear, such as a 720p TV set with analog only connections. People will say "you need that newer stuff," and then just watch with jealousy as all their friends get the newer stuff. Then they quietly adopt that sort of thing later on without telling anybody. As far as that compression goes, there's more to HD than than just receiving severely compressed broadcast signals.  |  IP: Logged

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