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Topic: LG brand & Plasma or LC

Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 03-04-2009 11:17 AM

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Lets see Mike... Didn't I replace your analog LED last time I was up because it had faded and we couldn't make Dolby Level?

As a matter of fact, you did. And, I had to replace about 10 banks of LED lights in our seats recently because they had faded and/or gone completely out. I don't know anything about LEDs and this foregoing discussion about them is obviously completely over my head, but when they first came onto the scene it was a fairly common assumption that LEDs would last tens of thousands of hours in applications such as aisle lights. But that's clearly not always the case.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 03-04-2009 11:52 AM

Bobby,
All I am trying to do is state a fact that all LEDs have a fade rate this is also taken into account in the MTBF spec for a given part or LED. An LED may indeed still light up but if the output of it is compared to the MTBF spec you may find that below a certain level it is considered dead. What is so difficult about understanding that? As far as CCFL vs. LED goes I wouldn't know and I made no such direct comparison of the two. If I did please post it in quotes for me to read. In reality its way too early in the game to know how long LED backlit screens will actually last. I bet though they are more expensive to replace... they are quite a bit more expensive to buy. The only advantages I see of CCFL is they are inexpensive, they are a prooven long lasting technology, they are inexpensive to replace although not all of them can be replaced. CCFL's are toxic to dispose of because of the mercury and phosphor contained within but then disposing of alot of LEDs may also present some toxic hazards as well. Only time will tell on LEDs used for as backlights.

Mike... Didn't know you had aisle light going out... Too high of voltage on them can cause premature failure. We can check the fully loaded voltage when I'm there.

Mark

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 03-04-2009 12:01 PM

quote: Mike Blakesley
I don't know anything about LEDs and this foregoing discussion about them is obviously completely over my head, but when they first came onto the scene it was a fairly common assumption that LEDs would last tens of thousands of hours in applications such as aisle lights. But that's clearly not always the case.

Not all LEDs are created equal. The best quality LEDs, from companies like GE, are rated to last 100,000 hours at full brightness -basically 24 hours a day for over 11 years.

There is a glut of cheap LEDs mainly from China flooding the market, particularly in border lighting products for building interiors and exteriors. You have to be careful which products to choose.

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Chris Slycord
Film God

Posts: 2986
From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 03-04-2009 12:23 PM

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Actually Mike does know that I do know how to read... you forget that he is one of my customers.

Where did I forget that he's one of your customers? And I wasn't at all saying you don't know how to read, or maybe since you misread my post completely, you do? [Wink]

See, I was saying that Mike called both of your actions unprofessional while you responded that the reason this happened is that Bobby isn't professional, thereby acting like none of the behavior was your fault.

And the fact that he's one of your customers only furthers my point. Someone you don't work closely with, complaining to about your behavior doesn't tend to hold as much weight as someone who knows you fairly well.

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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 03-04-2009 01:12 PM

quote: Bobby Henderson
The best quality LEDs, from companies like GE, are rated to last 100,000 hours at full brightness -basically 24 hours a day for over 11 years.

OK, this is not a hostile challenge. I'm just asking nicely...

Is there a source you can refer us to for that statement? I ask because I've never heard of any claims for LEDs to last that long (not that I'm an expert). I do see lots of references to numbers like 5 years and/or 50,000 hours. Even in traffic light applications, where lives are arguably at stake, I don't see claims of 100,000 hours. [Confused]

Maybe it's there and I'm just not seeing it. I do frequently see references to 5 years of continuous service for consumer appliances like LED-based LCD TVs (like the Samsung 950). Even then it's assumed that after that much time the LED brightness will have gradually deteriorated to around 50% of its original rating (brightness halflife).

GE Signage LED Products

GE Traffic Signal LED Products

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 03-04-2009 02:40 PM

quote: Chris Slycord
See, I was saying that Mike called both of your actions unprofessional while you responded that the reason this happened is that Bobby isn't professional, thereby acting like none of the behavior was your fault.

In my post, I originally had just the two examples of Bobby spewing profanity but then I thought it made the post read better if I showed that it was an argument.

I like a well-placed profanity just as well as anyone, in fact sometimes they're downright necessary to make a point (or get a laugh). My point was that it shouldn't be necessary to use that kind of language in a discussion between two smart people. Never mind that it's becoming the "norm" in today's society....that doesn't make it a good thing.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 03-04-2009 03:19 PM

quote: David Stambaugh
Is there a source you can refer us to for that statement? I ask because I've never heard of any claims for LEDs to last that long (not that I'm an expert).

100,000 hour claims have been common on many product spec sheets for things like electronic variable message centers not that all of those claims are correct. Do a Google search for "100,000 hour LED" and you'll find all sorts of stuff like this recent article about Gallium Nitride based LEDs.

Manufacturers like GE feel safer using the 50,000 hour claim from a liability standpoint while companies like Phillips will show higher lifetime claims like 70,000 and 80,000 hours with some clarification. They define an LED as having failed when it dims to 70% of its original light output. Others using 100,000 claims may simply using the criteria of whether the LED still lights up at all.

Also bear in mind, these companies sell a lot of white LEDs. Those are really over-driven blue LEDs and won't have nearly the same life span as a RGB cluster of LEDs. I'm scratching my head about the design of Apple's new 17" MacBook Pro, whose screen is back-lit with white LEDs and features a battery you can't remove. The battery thing scares me more than that white LEDs in the computer screen.

Even a claim of 50,000 hours is pretty impressive. That's close to 6 years of 24 hour per day operation. Who's going to do that with their TV set or computer display? Divided down to 8 or 12 hour per day usage levels you'll still get past a decade of life span.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 03-04-2009 04:21 PM

quote: Bobby Henderson
Who's going to do that with their TV set or computer display? Divided down to 8 or 12 hour per day usage levels you'll still get past a decade of life span.

Movie theaters for sure. They can pile the hours on stuff very rapidly with 12 to 14 hour days 7 days a week and stuff is sometimes run at extremes. I have changed about a half dozen LEDs in theater equipment this week alone... DTS readers, and Dolby LEDs mostly.

Mark

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Sam D. Chavez
Film God

Posts: 2153
From: Martinez, CA USA
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 03-05-2009 12:10 AM

I knew if I waited long enough this thread would take a turn toward civility.

Can we all put this one to bed while it's back on a high note?

There does not seem to be much left to debate except the fade rate of LEDs and who is going to wait around for five years or more to be proved correct?

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Claude S. Ayakawa
Film God

Posts: 2738
From: Waipahu, Hawaii, USA
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 03-06-2009 08:23 PM

I think after all of that heated debate, I think it would be better if we get back to the original topic I had started. Since I originated the thread, I have continued to look at more HD sets at stores like Best Buy and Costco. There is a very nice forty inch Toshiba (#405-300) at Costco with a $850.00 price tag and it is a full 1080p LCD set. It has three HDMI inputs and many other features that sound great. The picture quality is gorgeous. Does anyone know much about Toshiba HD sets, especially this model?

-Claude

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Mike Heenan
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1896
From: Scottsdale, AZ, USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 03-07-2009 12:17 AM

I was at Costco today and saw the new Vizio 55" LCD 120hz model. I could definitely tell the difference between the 60hz one and this one, but while I was watching it, I noticed how "loose" the image was and in some places it looked sped up when it shouldn't be. Anyone else notice this?

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Jesse Skeen
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1517
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 03-07-2009 01:50 PM

Most new TVs have a "feature" that makes stuff shot on film look like video. It's somewhat amusing in the same way as playing a record at the wrong speed. Fortunately you can turn it off, though they seem to default to on out of the box.

BTW, how the hell can you tell if a set is capable of displaying PAL? I'm gonna have to bring in a PAL-capable DVD player and a test disc to the stores when I'm ready to buy my new TV. Some will display it with no conversion, but others like Samsung give you a "Format not supported" message.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 03-07-2009 08:50 PM

I believe it's called 2-3 pull down... many also have a 24P cinema setting on them to mimik what 24 fps is like.

Mark

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Paul Mayer
Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under!

Posts: 3836
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Feb 2000

posted 03-07-2009 11:12 PM

For Jesse, that's the way I went - a cheap PAL-capable DVD player, which also can play any or all regions (the main reason I bought the thing). Even though it was cheap it makes a reasonable picture on my 20" monitor, and is minimally acceptable on projected images up to about 8' wide (if you sit back far enough and aren't too picky). The thing (a CyberHome) cost all of about $60 at Best Buy in 2001 and is still going strong. It's the last DVD player I'll ever buy.

For Claude, I am still a fan of Samsung, after getting to watch my old roommate's 50" LCD projection LED set for several months.
Was a steal at $1100 during blowouts at Costco and on-line last year. Of course self-contained projection is pretty much a thing of the past now.

Still not quite ready to jump into Blu-ray, mostly because that will require a substantial upgrade in the rest of my sound system (especially the receiver or pre-pro) to do justice to the new audio formats now available. Just not ready for that yet.

Maybe after my performance review at the airline next month - we'll see if they give me a raise or fire me.

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Mike Heenan
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1896
From: Scottsdale, AZ, USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 03-17-2009 06:53 PM

I found a smoking deal on a top of the line projector, a Pioneer Kuro FPJ1... thankfully the economy has made some high end items somewhat obtainable.

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