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This topic comprises 2 pages: 1 2
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Topic: Are 120hz televisions ideal for 24fps blu ray playback?
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Julio Roberto
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 938
From: Madrid, Madrid, Spain
Registered: Oct 2008
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posted 05-20-2009 02:15 AM
Guys:
Obviously one of us is fundamentally wrong. It will be hard to prove to you that, in HD such as blu-ray, you will no longer see "PAL" or "NTSC" anywhere in the product because ... blu-ray is blu-ray and all blu-ray compatible equipment must support the blu-ray aproved frame rates in the standard, which are 24, 50 and 60 (which can carry 25p and 30p signals, of course).
If you don't like the article I linked, find one that says the opposite. I'm having difficulties finding articles that "prove it" since nobody cares to talk about it anymore, as there is no difference.
Another entirely different thing is the support of over-the-air HD in the tuner. That is different and incompatible from US, Japan and old-PAL-land (most of the rest of the world). We went with different standards, each of which may or may not allow for multiple frame rates.
But even your ATSC digital over-the-air standard in the USA must support all "standard" HD frame rates:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATSC_Standards
Look at page 9 of the standard:
http://www.atsc.org/standards/a_72_part_1.pdf
Now the USA is officially, by mandate from the FCC, 25p land (as well) after the analog switch off.
LOL.
And another thing is support for old analog NTSC and PAL. All tv's I've seen here support old-analog-NTSC and, trust me, they don't convert 30/60hz to 50/100. Lol.
And I bet most (current) HD TV's in the USA also support old (i.e. composite input) analog PAL signals. Give it a try. But not all may. Analog support is just an "added bonus", not part of the "HD" revolution.
But we are not talking about old analog content which may or may not be supported (not converted, supported). We are talking about if an HD TV, and there is no "NTSC" HD TV set or "PAL" HD TV set ... they are all "HD" TV sets when it comes to the "HD" part supports natively frame rates other than 30/60 i.e.
And yes, they all do. They all support 24/50/60 (which can carry 25 and 30 progressive).
There are no longer 100hz tv sets. They are all 120hz/240hz. In Europe as well. That only means "up to 120hz". Not "fixed to" 120hz. If they support HDMI, and there is no "PAL-HDMI" and "NTSC-HDMI", they must support all the frame rates in the HDMI standard, which are 24/25/30/50/60.
It would be stupid (and very hard to do and with very bad results) for an LCD tv, that like the article I pointed work in a sample-and-hold fashion, to try to convert any of those frame rates to any other. That is not an even multiple, that is.
Find me an article or white paper that states that an HDMI signal is converted by any modern TV from whatever the HDMI standard is sending to another un-even frame rate. Other than to try to get rid of the awfull 3:2 pulldown on some content that was necessary with NTSC. Thank God you guys got past that ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
But you also said it yourself.
If the Pioneer Kuros "use" a 96hz fixed refresh rate ... how the hell was it showing 60i NTSC material? Did they suck big time when playing back an NTSC 60i DVD with an NTSC 60i TV series and all critics just missed the (un)even convertion to 96hz from 60i material? The Kuros could do UP to 96hz (actually, up to 100hz), and would do whatever rate was the most appropiate for them (i.e. 100hz for 25/50 material, 96hz for 24p and 60hz for 30/60 material). And that was plasma, that doesn't have such an easy time with arbitrary frame rates like LCD has.
You no longer see "PAL" and "NTSC" HD TV's other than in the over-the-air tuner they can equipped with. But get your own, separte Tuner or Satellite or Cable box with an HDMI output, plug it in you TV, and you'll see 24/25/30/50/60 frame rates supported by (just about) all w/o convertion.
It's in the HDMI standard and supported by most new TV's anywhere in the world w/o pulldown or speed ups convertion on the TV's ... that would be impossible or at least impractical.
Same with the blu-ray players. They must all support all the standard frame rates. Obviously, those for sale in the old NTSC-land would include some convertion to allow support for analog outputs (i.e. 3:2 pulldowns).
How do you think our HD TV's over here (which again, are the same as over there except for the over-the-air tuner part) react to a 24p signal? Convert it to 25p and duplicate a frame every 24?
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
I'm having great difficulties finding a definitive, more clear article than the one I posted before because ... well, nobody talks about frame rates anymore since just about all TV's support all the standard ones and it's no longer an issue.
I can only find a few discussions in forums with some miss-informed people.
If you can find one in which someone finds objection due to sampling artifacts on a modern TV with signals at different speeds ... let me know and we'll see where they mistake was on their side.
And I'm not saying that some manufacturers may have cut corners and opted for supporting only a preferred frame rate and converting all the rest from the HD TV standard to it. I'm saying I'm not aware of that being the norm at all. It's probably more expensive for them to do (in the amount of RAM needed for the temporal adjustments, i.e.) with LCD's than just hold the display and release it at a variable rate, gives worse results and, well, it would be just stupid. But I'm sure someone somewhere is doing it. I'm just saying that I don't believe that's the norm with modern HD TV's, and certainly not the case in the ones I have direct knowledge of, until someone proves me wrong.
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 05-20-2009 09:40 AM
quote: Julio Roberto
Obviously one of us is fundamentally wrong.
Think about what you have been saying. If any HDTV set could actively change its refresh rate to adapt to any frame rate (24, 25, 30, 50, 60) then there would be no need for TV sets to include high, common denominator refresh rates like 120Hz and 240Hz.
quote: Julio Roberto
It will be hard to prove to you that, in HD such as blu-ray, you will no longer see "PAL" or "NTSC" anywhere in the product because ... blu-ray is blu-ray and all blu-ray compatible equipment must support the blu-ray aproved frame rates in the standard, which are 24, 50 and 60 (which can carry 25p and 30p signals, of course).
North American made TV sets might be able to see the 1080p/24 video on a European Blu-ray disc just fine. But the matter will be different when it comes to extras on the disc. Unless the footage is 1080p/24 it will likely be PAL-oriented SD/HD footage not compatible with North American TV sets. And then there's the matter of region coding to consider as well.
quote: Julio Roberto
Now the USA is officially, by mandate from the FCC, 25p land (as well) after the analog switch off.
Linking to a page on Wikipedia proves very little since Wikipedia itself is often polluted with errors. The fact remains the vast majority of TV sets sold in North America are not compatible with PAL style 25Hz/50Hz video streams. They're certainly not compatible with over the air DTV broadcasts in that format.
quote: Julio Roberto
And yes, they all do. They all support 24/50/60 (which can carry 25 and 30 progressive).
You're claiming every HDTV set in existence natively supports a 1080p/24 signal? I have personally seen otherwise.
Most HDTV sets in existence do not natively support 1080p/24. In fact, most sets currently in use don't even support 1080p whether it's 30fps or 24fps. They fail the 1080p/24 compatibility tests with the latest DirecTV and Dish Network HD DVRs. Some crap out and fail to display a picture entirely when the Blu-ray player or PS3 tries to force a 1080p image via HDMI or component connections. For example, our company has an older 42" LCD-TV set in our conference room. I connected my PS3 to it during an office party. The TV set only worked properly with the PS3 set to output 720p. It flickered like crazy with 1080i and didn't show a picture at all with 1080p set. A lot of people are stuck watching any high definition content converted to 720p/60Hz or 1080i/60Hz, even if it is coming from a Blu-ray player. This gets to why I waited so long to buy my first HDTV set. I knew the limitations very well and didn't want to spend a significant amount of money on a new TV set until I knew for certain many of those problems had been solved.
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