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This topic comprises 2 pages: 1 2
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Topic: Sony plans 3d televisions for 2010
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 09-24-2009 09:09 PM
The first attempts at copying coin-op arcade video games were indeed pretty pathetic. The graphics quality sucked and so did the sound effects. By the end of the 1980s and early 1990s home gaming consoles really started closing the gap.
Today, home gaming consoles and run of the mill PCs can duplicate those games with 100% authenticity. Same exact graphics, same sound effects. That all seems great, well, until you look at a Namco classic game like Pac Man, Galaga or Dig Dug rendered perfectly in a tall rectangle inside a larger, horizontal HDTV picture. Or you see Robotron: 2084 authored perfectly in Shockwave Flash, but again only taking up a small part of the computer screen.
I loved a lot of those classic 1980s coin-op arcade games. But honestly, they are very primitive. The only way they really hold their charm is when you encounter them in an authentic coin-op game chassis that still works.
I don't expect full color home 3D to work perfectly right out of the gate. But that isn't to suggest RealD and Dolby3D work perfectly either. They all have some sort of compromise.
From the technical standpoint the home 3D system's biggest challenge is maintaining proper sync between the Blu-ray player, the HDTV set and the 3D LCD shutter glasses. I'm not sure how the electronics companies are going to manage that. But it's also worth mentioning that synchronized LCD shutter glasses technology is not new. The first IMAX 3D theaters were built back in the early 1990s and they featured IR controlled LCD shutter glasses. Perhaps the technology is more mature than we know. Computing technology is continuing to make big leaps.
Really, perhaps the biggest hurdle full color home 3D has in front of it is the matter of getting enough customers to open their wallets and buy the stuff.
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Frank Angel
Film God
Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 09-28-2009 11:32 AM
quote: Mark J. Marshall
I don't see flicker. I used to describe it that way because I didn't know how else to describe what I was seeing. Now I know what I'm seeing. I'm seeing that the eyes are out of sync. Thanks to persistence of vision, one eye is retaining frame #1 while the other eye is seeing frame #2. Some people aren't bothered by it or don't see it I guess, which is fine. But it does bother me.
Mike, I was just wondering if you've ever seen 35mm dual strip/dual projection 3D. If you don't see that phenomeon when watching dual projection 3D, then yes, you may be one of small percentage of the population which has trouble seeing 3D. The range is from almost total lack of depth perception to a slight difficulty processing the two images when there is a time disparity, as in all frame-sequential and over-under 3D systems.
But you can be confident that even if this is a problem with a small percentage of people, that will not stop the home video system from being put rolled out. Just like no one was worried about that small percentage of people who said they could hear the sampling steps in CDs and that made it sound horrible to them. And you have to think that all those people sitting in theatres watching frame sequential 3D without any hint of discomfort will be the market the industry will be selling to; they won't be worried about the few who can't deal with 3D. Just like the fact that there is a given percentage of people who are color blind didn't stop the advance of color tv.
My gut tells me that whether or not adults find problems with the glasses, the younger generation seems to fair a lot better with adapting to new technologies and I will put my money on them embracing 3D TV quite easily. I mean come on, if they can watch movies on an iphone and it doesn't bother them, having to wear glasses to see 3D will be a walk in the park. And rest assured, the producers of 3D content will be 120% behind the hardware launch because that opens up the whole home video market to their 3D product. Studios who have a library of 50s and 80s 3D product will have a pure profit return from such 3D video releases on disc. And what parent is going to resist their darling little brat screaming that they want to see UP or TOY STORY or whatever in 3D once he sees 3DTV at his friends house or sees Disney hawking 3D video releases in a TV media blitz ad compaign? Samsung has alread started an ad campaign for their 3D tvs in time for the holiday season.
The demand in that all-important 14 - 25 demographics will be what drives it, not us old farts whining because they have to wear glasses.
I'll bet it's here to stay, nitche market though it may be. Laserdiscs were a nitche market and only a small portion at that, but it held on for decades. 3D video may be the same kind of thing, although I would bet it will be a much bigger chunk.
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Mark J. Marshall
Film God
Posts: 3188
From: New Castle, DE, USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 09-28-2009 12:37 PM
If you're addressing me, then yes. I was at Jeff's first 3D expo, and also at Suffern, NY's follow up 3 day expo. Only two problems noted with regard to this issue...
1. Gorilla At Large went out of sync by one frame. For those that don't know that story... About half way through the second hour there was one long shot of two guys talking. Apparently one of the negatives was missing one frame from that shot. So when they struck the prints one of the two prints was missing one frame in the middle of that shot which threw the rest of the movie off. I saw that when it happened... ie in the middle of the shot.
2. While at the Suffern festival their interlocking mechanism apparently slipped a bit when they started Spooks - which ironically was attached to Gorilla At Large. I noticed that it was out of sync in the black before the picture faded in on the Columbia logo. Yes, I saw it while the image was all black on the screen - well actually I guess it was on the curtain while it was opening. It was nowhere near a full frame out - I knew what that looked like from the last Gorilla At Large problem. Sure enough, they stopped it, rewound it back, fixed it and re-started it. It slipped again, but not as badly. Saw that too, also while in the black. Confirmed it later with Bob F.
So, yes I can easily see 3D with no problems when it's right. But when it's out of sync it doesn't give me a headache or anything, it just annoys the crap out of me because the images don't hold together. And my eyes are fairly well trained to see 3D. For example, I can see those 3D Magic Eye things from across the room even when they're on a slight angle. I also used to draw 3D anaglyphic cartoons when I was a kid.
I don't believe that the reason so few people notice the temporal problem is because their eyes/brain work so well together that they are able to correct for it. I just think that they don't notice it for the same reasons they don't notice scratched prints or sound problems. No one has pointed it out to them. And since so few people have access to properly done 3D, most people are just fine with what they have and will never know the difference.
That's fine. But I would much rather be able to do 3D correctly in my home. I'm with Mike. Get me two signals in sync and I'll take it from there.
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Frank Angel
Film God
Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 09-28-2009 01:01 PM
Gottcha. And excuse the typo -- I meant Mark. Yup, I saw the single frame out in GORILLA at the first 3D expo. And definately it is bothersome. But that is a gross time disparity of a full 1/24th of a second and yes, it is something that I find intollerable. On the other hand, I guess I am not quite as sensitive to smaller incrimental off-sets as you -- in the over/under 80s stuff, I didn't notice any problems. Plus, I have a field sequential 3DTV system using LCD glasses at home and although the flicker is pronounced, that's the only anomoly that bothers me, not anything else. I am assuming the new system will have a much higher flash rate than this crude 3DTV system which uses standard, unmodified NTSC SVHS tape and only adding a double flash for each full frame.
Personally I am hoping this new consumer system rollout works fairly well because I love 3D and am willing to be tolerant of some 3D related artifacts. And here's the thing, if they get content on Blu-Ray, then there is no reason why I won't be able to use dual video projectors and do it that way, completely eliminating any temporal displacement, even if it means using a frame-store box to make sure both frames are fed to the projectors simultaniously. I know 3DTV has such a box that converts their frame sequential to dual signals for two projectors. Should be an easy thing to do once the movies are available in 3D BluRay.
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Julio Roberto
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 938
From: Madrid, Madrid, Spain
Registered: Oct 2008
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posted 09-28-2009 03:09 PM
In contrast to sequential-based TV's, the polarization-based TV screens, like the JVC or Hyundai, don't have this problem (in any significant way), as both frames can be displayed at the same time. Nonetheless, until they are made with twice the vertical resolution, most of them do usually halve the amount of pixels going to each eye.
Other polarization-based monitors, like the iZ3D do have the same full resolution in 2D than 3D and both images are displayed at precisely the same exact time (necessarily). Perhaps they'll come up with a HDMI/Blu-ray 3D compatible TV model or they'll start making TV's with twice the vertical resolution and simply duplicate (or better, interpolate) the lines for 2D and interlace them for 3D. That, to me, would be the ideal 3D monitor.
LCD is good-and-bad at the same time for polarized 3D in that they already use polarized light (that's the plus side) but, on the other side, the optical path is not flat (i.e. they are "thick" and the response changes with the angle of view). This is bad for polarization differenciation and most current polarized-based TV's suffer from limited angle of view before the ghosting starts being a problem.
Ideally, whenever OLED TV's became cheap-and-large-and-bright-and-lasting-and-good enough, they can make excellent polarization-based or even chromatic/interference, like Dolby, 3D monitors.
Not to mention sequential 3D, which they pretty much all can do just fine even today. Better than cinema's RealD/Master Image/XpanD (i.e. +240hz vs 144hz). But this is what we are talking about here: moving away from sequential to simultaneous.
Time disparities do bother me (I suspect just about everybody, even if unconsciously) a bit, but I can ignore them unless they are one full frame (1/24th), of course. I projected non-sync'ed 3D for a while with statistical disparities of 1/100th (1/50th maximun) of a second and it didn't bother me nor anyone I asked.
Over/under disparity is also completely different, yielding something similar to a 192th of a second but with significant periods of total blanking in both eyes and significant periods of full/near-full synched-images in both eyes. It's easier to feel bothered by digital's 144th disparity because you never, nor even for a little while, are watching both images at the same time with both eyes. And the simultaneous blanking intervals are extremely short in digital.
It's like the color wheel issue. Some people are really bothered a lot by it, some never notice what you are talking about. Some can see it a bit, but don't care enough to be bothered. Thankfully, they'll be choices at home including full sync'ed 3D.
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