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Author Topic: 3-D HDTV will be the savior of movie 3-D Mark J. Marshall Film God Posts: 3188 From: New Castle, DE, USA Registered: Aug 2002 posted 07-12-2010 03:35 PM                    It has to do with one eye being slightly behind the other - NOT with how fast they flicker. Although the faster they flicker the less behind it is and the harder it is to see the temporal disparity. Eventually maybe they'll be so fast that my eyes won't mind but right now they mind - even at 120. With 2D and 48 fps on the screen, the eyes are in sync because they're both seeing the same image at the same time. Think about pulfrich (or however you spell it). The whole point is to have one dark lens slow down a single image to one of your eyes to trick your brain into seeing a 3D effect. If something as simple as a darker lens is enough to offset a 2D image to your eyes and fool the brain into thinking its seeing something different in each eye, how fast does the flicker have to be in order to get two out of sync images in sync again? Answer: Pretty Damn Fast. And where are we now: Not Fast Enough. Those are MY eyes. Yours may vary.  |  IP: Logged Frank Angel Film God Posts: 5305 From: Brooklyn NY USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 07-13-2010 01:35 AM                        quote: Chris Slycord LCD TVs only run at one frame-rate. So it has nothing to do with 120 being too slow, but with 120 not being evenly divisible by 48. Ya lost me.  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 07-13-2010 06:44 PM                     Actually 3D capable LCD-TV sets typically operate at a 240Hz refresh rate, not 120Hz. 240Hz is divisible by 48 (the combined frame rates of 24fps 3D movies) as well as 60 and 30 (for 30/60Hz originated material). For Blu-ray 3D the LCD-TV is delivering 120Hz video to each eye. 240Hz is a pretty good common denominator number for film, video and 3D content. However, bigger questions have to be asked for each TV set model on whether its LCD performance works well enough at 240Hz speeds. Doesn't the 3D TV sets from Panasonic run at something like 600Hz?  |  IP: Logged Chris Slycord Film God Posts: 2986 From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea Registered: Mar 2007 posted 07-13-2010 09:00 PM                     quote: Frank Angel Ya lost me. LCD's have fixed refresh rates. If I have a 60 Hz LCD, it only runs at 60 Hz and that cannot be changed. If I run something that's designed for a 24 Hz mode (like a movie), it has to do some pull-down action to make it play in the 60 Hz tv. And the idea of 120 Hz tv's is to natively support both the 60 Hz and 24 Hz material (as 120 is the lowest common multiple of 60 and 24) without that pull-down stuff. But now that you're using 3D movies, those are gonna run at 48 Hz, which doesn't evenly divide into 120. So with your 120 Hz tv and 48 Hz material, you'll end up with pulldown shit yet again. So as Bobby pointed out, they are making those tv's run at 240 Hz, as that is the lowest common multiple of 24, 48, and 60 because that way you'll end up with no pull-down bullshit on any of those.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 07-13-2010 10:59 PM                        Still can see 240Hz flicker. Not fast enough. Needs to be 60000Hz maybe.  |  IP: Logged Julio Roberto Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 938 From: Madrid, Madrid, Spain Registered: Oct 2008 posted 07-14-2010 06:33 AM                    Though not advertised, most modern LCD TV's can ran natively to at least TWO refresh rates, one a multiple of 60 and another a multiple of 50. Thus, 240hz advertised models usually do (at least) 240hz and 200hz natively and 120hz models do 100hz as well. So most 240hz TV sets can display frame rates of 60, 50, 30, 25 and 24 fps w/o un-even pulldowns or scanning temporal artifacts.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 07-14-2010 02:33 PM                        So basically most new US TVs these days are PAL compatible? That's cool. Now only if we could squeeze SECAM in there, because it is phiggidy (yes, I know it runs at the same refresh rate as PAL, but the same color scheme?).  |  IP: Logged Julio Roberto Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 938 From: Madrid, Madrid, Spain Registered: Oct 2008 posted 07-15-2010 12:32 PM                    quote: Joe Redifer So basically most new US TVs these days are PAL compatible? Well, indeed, but remember that in HD, there is no "NTSC or "PAL". *ALL* "HD" sets must be able to (properly) display all HD modes, and those include 720i/p at 25 and 30fps, 1080i (nowadays upgraded to "p" for free) at 25 and 30fps, as well as some 50fps and 60fps modes. At least. Only 24fps support, which is a standard supported by blu-ray, wasn't widely supported by "HD" TV manufacturers, though some did. This is changing now as well. So, in short, yeah. No more "PAL" vs "NTSC". Now it's all HD. And HD can be 25fps or 30fps *at least* w/o problems or weird things going on in *ALL* "HD" TVs worldwide. 24fps some-times (spotty support). And multiples, of course (100hz/120hz/200hz/240hz/600hz) etc. Remember multisync? On computer monitors, as oppossed to TV sets,it's customary to only support a single fixed scanning rate on most models, though, so go figure. Some models support more than one, but these are not very common, I don't think. But again, "scanning" rates are usually not advertised by manufacturers anymore, though they are starting to once again now that LCD's are getting faster and monitors with over 72hz real-refresh rates are starting to "fight" in the open market for customer $$$$.  |  IP: Logged Chris Slycord Film God Posts: 2986 From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea Registered: Mar 2007 posted 07-15-2010 12:45 PM                     quote: Julio Roberto Well, indeed, but remember that in HD, there is no "NTSC or "PAL". Yes, in the sense that every digital television standard supports both PAL and NTSC frame rates, but no in the sense that there's still incompatible standards being used. Pretty much everywhere that used NTSC now uses ATSC and pretty much everywhere that used PAL now uses DVB-T. And there's IDB-T as well. It's a hodgepodge.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 07-15-2010 02:58 PM                        Yes, they are still using PAL and NTSC garbage like 59.94, 29.97 and 23.98 fps instead of 60, 30 and 24. No the color scheme may be gone, but PAL and NTSC are still there in framerate. What's funny is that my Canon 7D camera which shoots HD video lets me select between PAL and NTSC. When switched to PAL, the bitrate is a bit higher on the same resolution and framerate, maybe to support the wider color.  |  IP: Logged Chris Slycord Film God Posts: 2986 From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea Registered: Mar 2007 posted 07-15-2010 04:00 PM                     ATSC can support all of those frame rates as well as the 50 and 25 that were used by PAL.  |  IP: Logged

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