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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Large Format Forum   » APOLLO 13 at the IMAX (Page 2)

 
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Author Topic: APOLLO 13 at the IMAX
Martin Brooks
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 900
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 09-27-2002 10:49 AM      Profile for Martin Brooks   Author's Homepage   Email Martin Brooks   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
While the presentation was impressive, I don't want to leave the impression that there wasn't any grain. There was definitely visible grain, just a lot less than you'd expect considering the blowup and definitely less than in a standard 35mm presentation of most films shot in 2-perf formats.

On a distantly related note, Lawrence of Arabia opens today at the Ziegfeld with a 70mm DTS print. In the New York Times Ad, it says, "Newly Remastered Digital Sound. Fresh 70mm Prints in Select Locations." I think that's the first time I've seen a statement like that latter sentence in an ad for a film.

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Steve Kraus
Film God

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From: Chicago, IL, USA
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 - posted 09-27-2002 03:39 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
At the heart of digital grain reduction is the need to decide if something is useful detail or grain structure. So how well did they do? Did the grain reduction come with a loss of fine detail (keeping in mind that with this degree of enlargement some detail just isn't there in the first place)? Did it look like the process homogenized many tiny color nuances into a bland monochromatic field in the interest of reduced grain?

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Adam Martin
I'm not even gonna point out the irony.

Posts: 3686
From: Dallas, TX
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 - posted 09-27-2002 08:38 PM      Profile for Adam Martin   Author's Homepage   Email Adam Martin       Edit/Delete Post 
The Imax DMR process has an adjustable grain reduction. A specific example would be: In the scene when they pass the moon and Lovell is daydreaming about what it would be like to walk on the moon, the grain reduction was cut back a little so that you can make out the texture of the moon dust without it blurring into a smooth liquid-y surface.

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Frank Angel
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 - posted 09-28-2002 02:43 PM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve,

I was looking for just that -- that cartoon look, but I must say, it wasn't there -- I saw flesh tones and the detail in hair and skin. Question is, is this fine-tuning of each shot to balance detail with grain reduction done by the program itself (unlikely) or by a human making qualitative decisions as the process is in progress (probably). If the former is the case, then the second question is, what are the labor costs involved and once they get into a full production, doing conversions for releases in quantity, will they pull back the human intervention and set the thing on auto-pilot? It's easy to take pains and time to produce a single output that represents the very best a system can produce, it's in the mass production that the quality invariably suffers. After all, there is no reason we couldn't make every 35mm release print an EK print....no reason except time and money.

The one thing IMAX has going for it is that they seem to have a corporate culture of quality going for them in their favor. If they can maintain the quality I saw with APOLLO 13, I think we will all benefit. I know, you hate to think that some computer is deciding what detail to leave and what to delete, but I just looked at the image and it was by far a stunning presentation. Your concerns about it pretty much obliterating 70mm is quite valid; if you are going to go through that cost of convertion -- and it certainly isn't cheap by any stretch of the imagination -- why not just start with 65mm neg? The IMAX conversion wouldn't have to fudge detail that isn't there and you would get awesome looking 35mm reduction prints.

But hey, we aren't running the world, and the ones who are aren't asking us!

John said, > Since that theatre shows 3D too, it's likely they have a high gain screen, which could account for the "hot spot" from some seats.<

I think the Sony IMAX uses alternating Left/Right eye projection with the LCD glasses. No reason to have a silver screen with that process since there is no polarization involved. Although since the alternating frame system is a newer vintage than the original IMAX 3D which did use double projectors with polarization, perhaps they did put in a silver screen and never removed it....it sure had that "silver" look to it. I should have gotten closer and taken a better look at it.


Frank

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

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 - posted 09-28-2002 02:57 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I like Steve Kraus' idea about the IMAX DMR process (or something similar to it) as a means of making better 5-perf 70mm blowups from 35mm film elements.

If mainstream Hollywood productions can get past the current (and arguably low quality) of CGI and digital intermediate production being set at 2048 X 1536 (2K) and upping it to at least 4096 X 3072 (4K) levels or better, then 5/70 stuff would work really well on large stadium seated screens.

With a high resolution scan and digital intermediate process done at 4K and/or 6K levels, 35mm/70mm blowups would look pretty darned sharp, especially if the 4K or 6K output is laser recorded directly to things like a 65mm interpositive for direct 70mm contact printing.

But still, I would like to see VistaVision and 65mm camera origination occur. That's because I'm betting it would actually be cheaper to shoot the movie in large 8/35 or 5/65 format than doing all kinds of high res 35mm negative scanning and manipulation work.

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Adam Martin
I'm not even gonna point out the irony.

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 - posted 09-28-2002 06:31 PM      Profile for Adam Martin   Author's Homepage   Email Adam Martin       Edit/Delete Post 
The Imax DMR process scans the 35mm original at a resolution of 6K.

The Imax 3D system with the electronic goggles is actually a hybrid system that still uses polarizers, thus requiring a silver screen. Regular Imax polarized 3D will get you a visual SNR up to >150:1 depending on where you're sitting. Adding electronically toggled liquid crystal elements will get you a SNR as high as >750:1 in the best seat. The downside is that the electronic goggles are incredibly expensive and are high maintenance items.

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Steve Kraus
Film God

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 - posted 09-28-2002 09:24 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well it doesn't exactly wipe out 65mm origination (on theatrical features) when there's none to wipe out!

Perhaps it's a pipe dream but one could see, as I suggested above, a revival of some limited 70mm exhibition aided by this process so people really do see a difference when they attend the 70mm venue. THEN, with the return of 70mm blowups (digital blowups, that is) lending to the prestige of a BIG PICTURE as they did in the past it's not inconceivable that someone might want to take a stab at 65mm shooting to produce even better images, without DMR, and which even improves ordinary 35mm prints. And better IMAX blowups too. Meanwhile the digital cinema folks are caught with their pants down.

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Frank Angel
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 - posted 09-30-2002 05:39 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree Steve that this may generate new interest in wide gauge production -- it will make 35mm reductions look much better, it will make DMR's job easier to get near IMAX original quality and naturally it will allow theatres that once invested in 70mm projection equipment to start using those wide sprockets again. Gosh, a resurgence of quality images again without the letters DLP mentioned once.

Steve said >Meanwhile the digital cinema folks are caught with their pants down.< ....a very unpleasant sight indeed, thankfully, in DLP it will be out-of-focus.

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David Stambaugh
Film God

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From: Eugene, Oregon
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 - posted 10-01-2002 01:32 PM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
News on Apollo 13 & Imax:
Apollo 13


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John Pytlak
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 - posted 10-01-2002 01:47 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As the Kodak ad says: "A single frame of film contains over 12 million pixels of information and the full range of human emotion". (See the ad inside the front cover of the October 2002 "American Cinematographer).

I hope they decide to use DMR on some of the classic films originally shot on 65mm negative film too.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Aaron Haney
Master Film Handler

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From: Cupertino, CA, USA
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 - posted 10-01-2002 07:15 PM      Profile for Aaron Haney   Email Aaron Haney   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
One thing not mentioned by the Yahoo article David posted is that Apollo 13 is being beaten at the box office by Space Station 3D, a "real" IMAX movie:
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/weekend/2002/39.htm

Although Apollo 13 does have a higher per-screen take.

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Bruce Hansen
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From: Stone Mountain, GA, USA
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 - posted 10-01-2002 07:51 PM      Profile for Bruce Hansen   Email Bruce Hansen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't know anything about the noise (grain) reduction in the new process, but I know how noise reduction has been done in video for years. The process is based on the concept that noise is random, images are not. If you average a number of frames together, the noise will cancel itself out. If you average too many frames together though, any motion will smear. So you have to decide how much noise reduction you can use without smearing becoming a problem.

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