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Author Topic: First Lossless DTS Install Completed Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 06-05-2004 06:54 PM                     Another potential problem for DTS and "lossless encoded audio" is the very nature of uncompressed LPCM sound. There are competing lossless compression codecs, most of which operate at an approximate 2:1 ratio and any can be licensed for other potential systems in competition with DTS. DTS has their own lossless extension to the DTS CAC codec. But other formats like Meridian Lossless Packing are popular (and since Dolby is involved in distributing that one, I could see that in use on a next-generation Dolby Digital hard drive-based system). Furthermore, ever increasing hard drive capacity and speed even calls into question the use of lossless compression on the audio. That could make it even easier for a competitor to join the fray. In the past, lossy compression systems for audio have been necessary (and continue to be in various storage/playback formats). But with a hard disc based film audio player, there isn't really any need for a protected, patented compression system like Dolby AC-3, SDDS ATRAC or DTS' APT-X100 and CAC systems. With uncompressed audio, the main differences to set apart a DTS XD-10 player or any competing unit will be in the measure of playback quality, dependability, cost --and finally, security of the audio itself. We may see a switch from audio companies developing compression systems to ones where copy protection and other security measures are central to the product.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-05-2004 07:50 PM                     I don't see this as just a Large Format playback system, I think that its use for that is really secondary. With the fairly large base of XD-10's already installed around the world it makes a big scale conversion to Lossless playback very possible in alot of theatres all at once. Any film can be encoded for playback in this sound format and the unit would also still play back standard APTX encoded cinema disks. I see all this as a huge advantage for DTS in the very near future and in the long run. Dolby would have to come out with a whole new processor in order to accomodate this sort of thing... that takes alot of time, and then even more time to get a sufficient number of new Dolby units into cinemas before any producer would ever consider encoding with it. DTS clearly has the advantage with this product this time around. Mark  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 06-06-2004 12:16 PM                     To simplify the point I was making, lossless compressed or uncompressed surround would be easier for a lot of different companies to deliver. There is a potential that film studios could send out an uncompressed LPCM audio track on discs that would be compatible with any number of systems. DTS has the early lead by virtue of the XD-10 and its impressive capability. But Dolby, Sony or even other cinema products companies like Smart or Ultra Stereo could get into the act with competing products. It would be easy if they can all play the same format of uncompressed audio. One thing is certain though, Dolby would have to go back to the drawing board completely on developing a next-generation system. They can't get get by with trying to extend the capability of the sound-on-film concept. They'll have to synchronize the playback of an uncompressed surround player to the synch data in the existing SR*D track, or come up with a time code to stick in the area between perfs on the other side of the 35mm print. On the large format thing, can't some kind of steering committee or group agree to standardize a time code for 15/70 and 8/70 stuff? I wouldn't expect them to standardize DTS time code, but there are other things like SMPTE time code available.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-06-2004 04:35 PM                     Bobby, For large format it is already somewhat standardized. A standard shaft encoder generates 240 pulses per frame and feeds a time code generator that puts out the correct time code for what ever playback system is being used. This is frame for frame acurate so the need for time code on the film is eliminated but still could be done if required for some reason. Both the DTS E175 and the E480 tc generator can output other standard SMPTE time code signals as well as DTS time code. The nice thing about the DTS E480 box is that it has the ability to learn the speed characteristics of the projector drive system in case of shaft encoder signal loss. Mark  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 06-06-2004 06:29 PM                        So if I decided to cut out 3 or 4 frames here and there (just for sake of argument) would the shaft encoder know it? How does the shaft encoder know which frame it is "encoding"? Or do you just end up getting the shaft? I don't understand NDA's for such situations. If IMAX and DTS are so afraid of their stuff, why don't they just patent it? It's not like someone else can uses the same or similar method IMAX uses and not have anyone notice, and then get their asses sued off. IMAX is so afraid of anyone looking under the hood, and I kind of find that humorous. Does IMAX corporate make sure people are paranoid before they are hired there? Hell, they make their projectionists sign a LIFETIME NDA. Yeah. Otherwise they might go out of business or lose millions. Apple has a lossless compression method available to anyone who has Quicktime 6.5.1 or higher. What is DTS afraid of? If they plan on putting this in normal theaters, than GOOD LUCK! NDA or no NDA, the popcord kids will talk about it, let me steal the software (cuz y'know, that's what EVERYONE really wants to do, cuz somehow that would be some kind of advantage to me), and then DTS stock will obviously plumment, and then I will rule the world!!!! I had to sign an NDA when Filmguard was still under development, but that's understandable.  |  IP: Logged Mark J. Marshall Film God Posts: 3188 From: New Castle, DE, USA Registered: Aug 2002 posted 06-06-2004 07:23 PM                    The customers end up getting the shaft when they see three or four frames of black slug go through the projector to keep the picture in sync with the sound.  |  IP: Logged Stewart Anderson Expert Film Handler Posts: 105 From: Sandy, Utah /United States of America Registered: Aug 2003 posted 06-07-2004 03:54 AM                        Cool dts release on the XD10: http://www.dtsonline.com/cinema/products.php?ID=1929230003  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 06-07-2004 05:33 PM                     Splicing black slug into a film is the fatal problem for off-film time code generators, hence my original question regarding a standardization of something like SMPTE time code for various 70mm special venue formats. I'm wondering how you even tell exactly how many frames of film you lost from some mishaps. Doing this kind of splicing thing in the standard 35mm theatrical market would be totally unworkable. Time code on the print is absolutely mandatory there.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-07-2004 06:26 PM                     Bobby, Admittedly T.C. on L.F. film would be nice AND the equipment already exists NOW and is installed at CFI, however its not really necessary. Film breaks or pile ups are so rare with 15/70 that you rarely will run into a showing with black slugs. But at 360 fpm when they do happen the pile up is usually massive involving at least 50 to 100 feet, requiring replacement footage to be inserted. Black slugs are hardly a fatal thing... so don't blow the slug issue out of proportion for no reason. They are generally not keepers and are only left in for a few days, if the print can even be run with them, whilst replacement footage is printed or removed from another print and sent to that location to replace the damaged portion. At Lehi film pile- ups have not happened in a long-long time. What does occasionally happen to a new or careless operator is a tailout and that almost always breaks the reg pins off, or throws the cam unit out of time. Tailouts always happen on junk runout film anyway. So whats the big deal with the industry standard of using tach to generate T.C for audio synchronization? Mark @ CLACO Mark  |  IP: Logged Phil Hill I love my cootie bug Posts: 7595 From: Hollywood, CA USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 06-07-2004 06:58 PM                  I agree, Mark.... No big deal with slugs OR the sync method used in 1570. While it's true that DTS code on film is a good move and a step in the right direction, there are 1000's of prints out there that have no TC on the print. I have rarely seen any registration pins being broken off or knocked out of alignment from a crash at 24fps rate of 337.5 fpm, but I certainly have seen it at the 675 fpm rate for 48 fps! Ummmm....been there, done that... YIKES! No matter what the case, I have always seen the cam timing shot...even when some careless operator lets a film tail out. BAD BOY! >>> Phil  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-07-2004 08:34 PM                     Before they had installed a complete UPS for the system they had just about every imaginable thing go wrong or break down. Since the UPS was installed they have not had any problems at all. Bad Boy!..... For Sure! Mark  |  IP: Logged

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