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Author Topic: Would you invest in 35mm today?
David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 10-03-2005 09:45 AM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark, the only factual error I see in your essay is the Chinese currency is the yuan, not the yen. [Wink]

Just as a counterpoint, if film were a new technology being rolled out to thousands of public venues around the world today, you guys would be mocking it. Film??!! Tens of thousands of reels of fragile film to be processed and handled and shipped and dropped and spliced together by hand, all without being damaged? You gotta be shitting me!! Too fragile! Platters are Rube Goldberg's worst nightmare! Projectors are full of mechanical parts just waiting to break down! Xenon lamps will explode, maiming the underpaid and unskilled operators, who have no health insurance! Common sense says the whole concept is doomed to failure!

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Matt Fields
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 545
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: Jun 2005


 - posted 10-03-2005 09:54 AM      Profile for Matt Fields   Email Matt Fields   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am cautiously updating my 35MM equipment.

There can be no doubt that digital will happen one day, the studios have to much to gain, and they hold the cards. However, I agree with Mark. It will happen later rather then sooner.

I want to get into digital as late as possible. I do not want to be a guinea pig for an experiment. They can work the bugs out with someone else. I also don't to have to replace obsolete junk every two-five years.

Two questions that run through my mind are:

What equipment will need to be replaced, when the conversion comes? Obviously projectors, platters, and soundheads are out the door. But what the sound equipment and lamphouses?

Is there a saturation point where an increase in the pixels will not make a big difference in picture quality?

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Darryl Spicer
Film God

Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000


 - posted 10-03-2005 09:55 AM      Profile for Darryl Spicer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Jobless rate approaching 25% nation wide because of china landing the DLP production contract from cheap studio executives. Millions in electronics and film industry now out of work....

.....People stop going to the movies due to the massive rise in ticket costs to help cover the unforseen exspenses incurred upon the exhibitors due to all the massive upgrades and changes over the years. Average ticket price jumps to $14 while gas prices sore to an average of $5.00 for the cheap gas due to two more massive hurricanes hitting the gulf cost and sinking New orleans and destroying the oil rigs. Luckily they were able to evacuate all the people to safer ground this time so not as many deaths occured. One guy was asked when coming out of a movie how he thought about the picture and sound. His reply was "Who gives a fuck...I can get a better picture and sound on my home theatre system and not have my wallet raped by these over inflated ticket prices. The word Digital is now listed as a vulgar term in the new Webster's Dictionary.....

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-03-2005 10:09 AM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Why would one need to upgrade a sound system to support [dlp] ? Can't you just plug the server into anything from a Kelmar mono system to a CP650? Even if it requires an external D/A converter, that shouldn't preclude connecting it to whatever existing system is already installed. [Confused]

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Mitchell Dvoskin
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1869
From: West Milford, NJ, USA
Registered: Jan 2001


 - posted 10-03-2005 10:14 AM      Profile for Mitchell Dvoskin   Email Mitchell Dvoskin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: David Stambaugh
if film were a new technology being rolled out to thousands of public venues around the world today, you guys would be mocking it.
Only if it was inferior to what it was replacing, but being hyped as being better.

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Matt Fields
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 545
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: Jun 2005


 - posted 10-03-2005 10:17 AM      Profile for Matt Fields   Email Matt Fields   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Scott-

That's what I thought, it just never hurts to ask. Matt

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-03-2005 10:29 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
It's lonely sometimes trying to separate the good from the B.S. in the projection TV debate.
Not really Lou....just remember, anytime you hear someone say that the "rollout" is going to happen in a "big way" or that digital will replace film in the next 2 to 5 years, just stamp ASSHOLE on their foreheads and walk away. OK, if you find that socially unacceptable, then just ask them "And that statement is based on WHAT, fool? What FACTS that you know that no one else is privy to?" I am so sick of hearing this crap being thrown around as if it has come from some industry study that takes into account ALL the variables, of which there are many, some that have not even surfaced as yet.

These same people were saying that the "big rollout" was just around the corner almost a decade ago. Well, if less that 100 screens in 8 years is a "big rollout," then yea, maybe they were right. But given the nearly 25 years it took for that "rollout" of the $700 red readers, I think you can bet that exhibitors will not swallow hype when they take a look at the bill for the change to digital -- the REAL bill, not just the cost of installation, but of maintenance and energy consumption. They will be looking at the hype with the skepticism of a guy having to actually open his wallet for this change. Even if some sort of a co-op deal is arranged, it still all comes down to a change that is, at its heart, so studios can save print costs. Then to rub salt in the wound, it passes the extra, substantial energy costs on to the exhibitor who gets NOTHING in return for it on a day in and day out operation. I think it is safe to say that if anything is certain, it is that the exhibitor is not wanton with his money. He is savvy enough to want to completely understand the long-term financial impact of running digital as opposed to film before he plunks down one red cent. He's not going to increase his operation overhead just so patrons see a steadier picture (you think he would ever give a refund because a patron came out and said, "I want my money back because that image in Cinema 3 has an unsteady picture" or "I saw some scratches in the image, I couldn't enjoy it?" If he gave a damn about that, he would be spending more money in the booth NOW.

Past a certain point, and it isn't much past -- is there a picture on the screen? is there sound in the theatre? -- he isn't too terribly concerned about more nuances than that. So what makes any rational person think all of a sudden he's going to say, "Oh sure, I will gladly take on the on-going, substantial economic burden of running digital, just so the studio can save the cost of prints and I can get a rock steady image on the screen? I just don't see exhibitors gleefully switching to ANY technology without first making sure it is going to benefit their bottom line. Studios may have power to dictate lots of things, but they can't make an exhibitor incur an expenditure that gives him no return on his dollar. Picture steadiness, pristine even after the 1000th screening, environmental issues -- they all can be damned if it's going to cost him more money to operate. It changes nothing for him -- he gets the same number of seats sold -- with everything for the studio. Yah, he just can't WAIT to buy into that!

And if he somehow comes down with dementia and DOES replace all his 35mm equipment for video projectors, woe is the movie goer. How many screens will have dull, underlite images because he has always looked for ways to scrip on anything booth related; he'll be hot to offset the additional electrical cost by "saving" on electricity when he finds bills 30% higher in an economy where energy prices continue to rise. How many screens will have blemishes all over them because of the thousands of little nano-mirrors that have died, yet Mr. Exhibitor sees no reason to replace the DLP module, mostly because it COSTS GOBS OF MONEY.

Some tell me how this is good for the exhibitor. As for the studios trying to force this down the exhibitor's throat....it won't be the first time an exhibitor will shut a theatre down rather than run it at a loss. Studios are not going to make that coveted 50 million in opening weekend if all they've got are a few hundred digital screens to play it on.

Then again, the way around this for the studios would be to just buy their own theatres and install whatever the hell they want in them. When they see the price tag for digital that THEY have to pay for, their bean counters may be screaming at them to look for nice, refurbished 35mm projectors instead! [Razz]

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Mark J. Marshall
Film God

Posts: 3188
From: New Castle, DE, USA
Registered: Aug 2002


 - posted 10-03-2005 10:33 AM      Profile for Mark J. Marshall     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Go all digital. Especially if you're a google-plex. That way, you'll only ever be able to show about twelve movies a year.

[Roll Eyes]

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Thomas Jonsson
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 216
From: Bromolla, Sweden
Registered: Sep 2003


 - posted 10-03-2005 03:05 PM      Profile for Thomas Jonsson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In Sweden the number of digital theaters are now around 40
and will probably reach 50 at the end of the year. Most of
these are single theaters located in small communities. The
equipment is leased from a Belgium company - XDC Cinema. As
far as I know, only two machines are 2 k, the rest are 1,2 k.

Not many titles have been available in DLP. Mostly Swedish
films and some of the more popular American titles.
The experiment hasnīt paid off very well so far. With few
exceptions, audience attendance have been a dissapointment
even with brand new films. Waiting for a 35mm print for a
couple of weeks would probably not make a big difference.
I donīt have any figures, this is what Iīve been told by
some of the distributors.

As for the distributors, even if they donīt get their money
back on their DLP releases at the moment, the very figure
50 (digital theaters) seems to awake some interest in releasing
more titles in DLP.

The big theater chains in Sweden are showing no signs to go
digital so far. Not to my knowledge, anyway.

One thing I find very disturbing if/when digital happens - lots
of expensive 35mm equipment will suddenly become worthless junk!
What a waste of money it will be!

Thomas

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Daryl C. W. O'Shea
Film God

Posts: 3977
From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from)
Registered: Jun 2002


 - posted 10-03-2005 06:20 PM      Profile for Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Author's Homepage   Email Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark, I can't wait for the 13th year of your story. I heard there was an untimely death. [Big Grin]

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-03-2005 06:52 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Daryl C. W. O'Shea
Mark, I can't wait for the 13th year of your story. I heard there was an untimely death.

Naw, already built that one in and it happens way before year 13, I think about year 7 or there abouts.... "Valenti Dies". What I forgot to add was "Takes Crapcode to grave with him so bootlegged Valenti Clones can't be sold on the open market".

Mark

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 10-05-2005 08:19 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
FWIW, sales volumes of 35mm and 70mm print film continue to GROW. Worldwide, well over 10 BILLION feet are used annually, on over 100,000 theatre screens showing FILM. Answering the topic question "Would you invest in 35mm today?", Kodak continues to invest millions of dollars in motion picture film R&D, including print film.

Whether it's film or digital, Kodak provides the best of both worlds:

http://www.kodak.com/go/dcinema

quote:
Kodak Digital Cinema: NETWORK-BASED SOLUTION BUILT ON LINUX PLATFORM WITH ALL SYSTEMS AND SERVICES:
Fully compliant with today's — and will be compliant with tomorrow's — evolving interoperability standards of DCI and SMPTE. Supporting a choice of projectors — up to 2K resolution today, with upgrade to 4K tomorrow. Driven by unique KODAK Software and supported by KODAK Service worldwide

http://www.laserpacific.com/our_company.html

quote:
Kodak LaserPacific now plays an integral part in the motion picture process from the beginning of photography in dailies digital preview, digital intermediate, all the way to the home video delivery elements, as well as through delivery directly to cinemas in collaboration with Kodak Digital Cinema. LaserPacific has gathered the technology, expert staff and operational acumen to change the landscape once again. Utilizing a deep understanding of the post production process and drawing upon Kodak’s unparalleled expertise in image science, LaserPacific continues to enable the creative community with powerful new digital tools to help tell the stories the whole world watches.



[ 10-05-2005, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: John Pytlak ]

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Barry Floyd
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1079
From: Lebanon, Tennessee, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 10-05-2005 09:39 AM      Profile for Barry Floyd   Author's Homepage   Email Barry Floyd   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I just opened a second screen at my drive-in, and the threat of digital projection didn't even cross my mind. My second booth was opened with all used equipment, but it puts on a fantastic show none the less. I picked up a beautiful "barely used" (it looks almost new) platter from Louis, used an existing projector and soundhead I had in the garage, upgraded the sound reader to LED, and got a 4kw Christie lamphouse from another drive-in owner.

It would be hard for me to invest in brand NEW equipment that may / or may not be able to be used in 5-10 years.

I've yet to hear or see the words "digital projection" and "drive-in theatre" used in the same sentence from anybody at NATO or the DCI. That scares me more than anything.

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Jim Bedford
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 597
From: Telluride, CO, USA (733 mi. WNW of Rockwall, TX but it seems much, much longer)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-05-2005 10:13 AM      Profile for Jim Bedford   Author's Homepage   Email Jim Bedford   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The real question here should be: "Would you invest in Digital projection today?" Fat chance!

We too are "cautiously updating" our 35mm equipment.

I think I'll continue to use John and Kodak a barometers. When Kodak starts running away from 35mm like the film industry ran away from silent film, it will be a signal that can't be ignored.

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Louis Bornwasser
Film God

Posts: 4441
From: prospect ky usa
Registered: Mar 2005


 - posted 10-05-2005 12:38 PM      Profile for Louis Bornwasser   Author's Homepage   Email Louis Bornwasser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My understanding is that there is currently a technological limitation to Video. This means that very large indoor and all drive ins are excluded by lack of light. Louis

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