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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » Ebert on the future (?) of digital (Page 3)

 
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Author Topic: Ebert on the future (?) of digital
Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 07-08-2002 08:46 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Blah blah blah studies blah blah blah... I know what I like!

And for the record I KNOW that each frame of film is projected twice and sometimes 3 times. I didn't just get here, guys But that is still completely different than 48 individual images per second. I see a huge difference in 24-fps material on video vs 60 fields per second, even though the TV ALWAYS runs in 60i. 24fps transferred to video still looks better than anything having been originated in 60i. And please don't tell me that "it's all in the lighting".


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Arthur Allen
Film Handler

Posts: 99
From: Renton, WA, USA
Registered: Aug 2001


 - posted 07-09-2002 12:23 AM      Profile for Arthur Allen   Author's Homepage   Email Arthur Allen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
When daytime dramas do a prime time special, it's 30 frames/60 fields with frames cut out to make it look 24fps, and it looks crappy! It gets worse when there is no motion on the screen and the poor lighting gives the effect away.


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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 07-09-2002 02:19 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
When Douglas Trumbull was developing ShowScan (70mm, 60fps), it was reported that psychophysical studies showed higher framerates to look more "real". Here are some selected readings that include a discussion of framerate and perception:
http://www.hps4000.com/pages/general/the_showscan_process.pdf
http://www.audio-etc.net/articles/showscan.htm
http://www.naimark.net/writing/gifu.html
http://www.isea.qc.ca/symposium/archives/abstracts95/abs60.html
http://www.awn.com/mag/issue4.09/4.09pages/kenyonsimex.php3
http://www.naimark.net/writing/expo.html
http://www.superdimension70.com/articles/wide-screen-article.asp

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Kevin Baglow
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 135
From: Yeppoon Qld, Australia
Registered: Dec 2000


 - posted 07-14-2002 05:31 AM      Profile for Kevin Baglow   Author's Homepage   Email Kevin Baglow   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I hope we dont have to wait for Digital cinema to kill business before we change over to HD film

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Greg Anderson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 766
From: Ogden Valley, Utah
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 07-14-2002 12:38 PM      Profile for Greg Anderson   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Anderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Scott is right. Twenty-four frames per second is such a basic concept in Hollywood that it will not change for mainstream, theatrical films, period.

At about the time that Lawrence of Arabia was restored in 1989 both Panavision and Arriflex introduced new 65mm cameras with a host of state-of-the-art and/or convenience features which had already been common on 35mm cameras. It was an open invitation to big-budget producers to revive 65mm (and I thought that they'd take the bait after just having seen Lawrence of Arabia in its full splendor). But it didn't happen because 35mm was just too standardized. Nobody wanted the hassle of 65mm, it seems. This kind of thing will never fly without full support from the likes of Cameron, Spielberg, Zemeckis, Lucas, etc. ...and we already know where Lucas is wanting to go. And Cameron? Does he still want to make movies?

So... what makes Roger Ebert think they'll want to hassle with 48fps, an increased number of camera reloads on the set, an increased number of reels printed for each release print (...the list of real or imagined problems goes on but they'd rather deal with problems they're already familiar with)?

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 07-14-2002 01:19 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Film formats are largely driven by the success of films using those processes.

For instance, if "Jurassic Park" had flopped DTS would have had a much more difficult time getting theaters equipped after that show's running.

"Star Wars" can pretty much be given credit for ushering in the 70mm "blow up age" where a good number of theaters throughout the late 1970's and 1980's bought 70mm projection gear for the brighter image and mainly for the six-track Dolby mag sound.

There was lots and lots of hype debuting CinemaScope with "The Robe" and "Oklahoma" putting the classic Todd-AO 70mm format on the map.

Now, look at the kind of movies that have been made in 70mm during the last 30 years. To be quite honest most of them are BORING! By 1970, the 70mm format was starting to gain a reputation of only being used on overly long, boring bible-epic type movies. 70mm should have been used on more popular films --like so many of the big widescreen "summer movies" we've been used to seeing since the mid 1970's when "Jaws" started the "summer film blockbuster" trend.

The Panavision Super Panaflex 65mm, the Arri 765 and the Wilcam 65mm system are among the most sophisticated camera systems ever made. They have all the bells and whistles you would find on any standard Panavision 35mm Panaflex camera. There's a myriad of fast lens systems available for these cameras. And Kodak has a lot of fast emulsions availble for the 65mm gauge. The world of 50 speed only film for 70mm has been long dead. "Far and Away" alone proved one could shoot 70mm in indoor low light settings on location. 65mm/70mm does certainly demand more care in designing camera shots, but it is absolutely not an impossible medium to deal with.

All the flexibility given to 70mm production in the late 1980's and early 1990's should have boosted 70mm production in mainstream films. We should have seen big action films use the format. But that didn't happen. 70mm is only going to come back in mainstream commercial films if some Hollywood filmmaker will just have the balls to use the format on a film we actually want to see.

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Jeffry L. Johnson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 809
From: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 07-21-2002 09:53 AM      Profile for Jeffry L. Johnson   Author's Homepage   Email Jeffry L. Johnson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Are We There Yet? by Michael Karagosian.

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Michael Barry
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 584
From: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 07-21-2002 10:13 AM      Profile for Michael Barry   Email Michael Barry   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A good article, and one of the only ones I've read that tackles some of the technical issues involved.

In the concluding paragraph, the writer states that the conversion from 35MM film to a digital format is inevitable. As I stated earlier, I disagree, and I think this article supports my theory more than his.

The other point is that I haven't read any (solid) arguments to support the notion that digital cinema is inevitable. On the other hand, there are many reasons as to why it may not take place at all (as I also mentioned ealier).


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Jeffry L. Johnson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 809
From: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 07-21-2002 11:28 AM      Profile for Jeffry L. Johnson   Author's Homepage   Email Jeffry L. Johnson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here's another interesting article. It is "The Big Picture" column by Dominic Case which starts on page 13 of the pdf file. The article title is "Does the Past Have a Future?"

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