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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » 3D is a "premium business" for theatres, Regal and Dreamworks say (Page 2)

 
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Author Topic: 3D is a "premium business" for theatres, Regal and Dreamworks say
Tristan Lane
Master Film Handler

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From: Nampa, Idaho
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 - posted 03-31-2007 01:16 AM      Profile for Tristan Lane   Email Tristan Lane   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here we go.......

quote: Bobby Henderson
Further, imaging chips like the 3-chip 2K DLP units in Christie CP2000 projectors don't "scale." It doesn't work like a CRT gun. The pixel grid is very much a very fixed thing. There are different framing formats that fit within the maximum area of the 2K DLP chip's 2048 X 1080 pixel grid. 1998 X 1080 is one of them.

Bobby, your statement is partially incorrect.
Granted, the DMD's themselves aren't capable of scaling. The cinema processing portion of the projector is capable of scaling an image down to a specified presentation area while still displaying the entire package. I believe that this is required as per DCI spec. The projector can scale an image down , but an external scaler is required to upscale any image.

As I stated in my prior post, the source may be true 2K, but in no way is the projected image 2K in 3D on currently installed projectors.

quote: Bobby Henderson
As to reduced light output, yes, the image is not quite as bright. The RealD Z-filter that swings in front of the projector lens reduces some light. The silver screen does as well. I'm not sure what effect the higher frame rate has on reducing light levels.

The silver screen actually has the opposite effect. As stated by many people before on this forum, it is the highest gain screen available. Although the main purpose for the silver screen is to maintain polarization.
In fact, on the all of RealD installs that I have done, a gain of at least 4fl was seen on regular 2D light levels using the same lamp. When increasing lamp sizing, the silver screen allows for 2D light levels to exceed 25fl, whereas with both the Zscreen in place and 3D glasses in front of the meter, the light level drops to around 1/4 of 2D light levels.

quote: Jarryd Beard
2(eyes)*3(alternations)*24(different fps)=144fps.
Jarryd, You are correct.
RealD's website has information that explains this in greater detail, and the reasoning behind it.

Which leads me to the next quotes:

quote: Mark J. Marshall
There's a huge amount of strobing in the current 3D setups that manifests itself more clearly as movement on the screen increases.
Mark, I wonder if the presentations you have seen were configured properly, or if the setup/equipment was faulty.

The point of triple flash is to assist in the persistence of vision between the left and right eyes. In each second of image projection both left and right images are projected 3 times in an alternating manner. The amount of image overlap you describe is probably not noticed by everyone, but it makes sense to me.

The 3D configuration allows for dark time to be inserted between frames in order to reduce this effect, which makes me even more suspicious that the presentation you watched was configured incorrectly. Although, I have heard stories of certain people who process the visual image in a way that bothers them and makes it unacceptable.

Finally:

quote: Bobby Henderson
I'm under the impression the techs from Christie simply adjust the lamp for a certain balanced level once the silver screen is installed. A level ramped up even higher could result in hot spots on the screen. Is the lamp power in a CP2000 projector something that can be cued and controlled via a Doremi DCP-2000 server and Christie DCA21 automation?
What Jarryd is referring to is the transition of lamp power between 2D and 3D. Some theaters are running mixed 2D/3D trailer programming. So when the pennywise (or any other automation capable of commanding the projector to switch to a different format) cues the projector to switch to a 3D format, the projector increases the lamp output to a preset level.

The "channels" or individual picture format presets on the christie projector can be programmed to each use a specific percentage of lamp power to suit the needs of the format.

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Mark J. Marshall
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 - posted 03-31-2007 10:42 AM      Profile for Mark J. Marshall     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tristan,

Out of curiosity, what could be configured incorrectly that would generate the phenomenon I'm describing? Have you ever seen a 3D presentation with two projectors? I'm curious because I think that unless you know what it's supposed to look like, the problem I'm describing may not appear to be a problem. I'm not trying to sound condescending or anything, but I think it might be a case of: if that's the best you've seen, it may just appear normal to you.

Also even with a dark area inserted between the frames, the problem will still exist. I've seen 35mm interlocked 3D where the belt slipped slightly during start up. The film was not off by a full frame (which I've also seen - thank you, Fox), but the shutters on the projector were not in sync. The problem appeared exactly the same. In fact the projectionist stopped the show, reset the projectors, re-threaded and restarted it. The guy sitting next to me in the audience didn't notice the problem, so I had to explain it to him. He said he thought it looked fine, but it was the first time he had ever seen 35mm interlocked 3D. And of course, 35mm frames also have black between the frames. So, the black doesn't do anything to offset the fact that one eye is always 1/144th of a second behind the other.

One thing that may help is if they could figure out how to do realistic motion blur (in 3D) on these CG movies. That might help a little bit. I don't know. I'm still waiting to see something that was actually filmed in 3D presented on one of these projectors. Something live action. Then all of the motion blur would be there, and we could see how the system really performs. Everything up until now (I think) has been CGI, and/or the 3D has been faked.

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Gordon McLeod
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 - posted 03-31-2007 10:54 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Alternating eye 3d is often used and was actually put forward in the 50's under the nord 3d system

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Michael Coate
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 - posted 04-09-2007 01:21 AM      Profile for Michael Coate   Email Michael Coate   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Another article

quote:
More movies to be offered in 3-D
By GARY GENTILE, AP Business Writer
Sun Apr 8, 11:07 PM ET

By the end of the decade, Darth Vader could be rattling sabers with his enemies above the heads of moviegoers, and Buzz Lightyear could be flying off the screen on his way to infinity and beyond.

For real — or at least the cinematic version of real: 3-D.

A growing number of blockbuster, live-action films and animated movies are expected to be offered in in-your-face 3-D in the next few years, as thousands of theaters are outfitted with the special projectors and screens needed to show the films.

Jeffrey Katzenberg, chief executive of DreamWorks Animation SKG Inc., is so gung-ho about 3-D that he has said his studio might start exclusively releasing movies in the format as early as 2009 with its "Monsters vs. Aliens."

"For Memorial Day weekend 2009, I would like to see 3,800 locations and 6,000 screens that we can put our movie on. And if they are there, then we will be exclusive in 3-D," Katzenberg said at a recent investors conference.

So far, moviegoers have reacted positively to the few 3-D films that have been released in recent years.

"Meet the Robinsons" from The Walt Disney Co. debuted March 30, earning $25.1 million in its opening weekend.

More than a quarter of that revenue came from the 581 screens across the country that showed the film in 3-D, the company said. Those moviegoers were even willing to pay a few extra bucks to don special glasses and watch characters leave the screen.

A number of high-profile filmmakers have 3-D projects in the works, including Peter Jackson, Robert Zemeckis and James Cameron.

Walt Disney Co. has released 3-D versions of three animated films and recently signed a deal with Zemeckis to produce more. The studio is also rumored to be making the sequel "Toy Story 3" in 3-D, a report the studio declined to confirm.

These days, 3-D films are more than just a gimmick.

For theater owners and studios, the technology could be a lifesaver, luring people back to multiplexes for an experience that cannot be matched by sophisticated home-theater systems or stolen by pirates with hidden camcorders.

The theater industry is also battling competition from video games and other alternative entertainment along with Internet downloads that will soon deliver high-definition films directly to homes.

Film exhibition companies looking to protect their business believe 3-D will boost revenue. Some industry executives think theaters can add as much as 50 percent to the cost of a ticket for a 3-D feature.

"If we can sell 10 percent to 15 percent of our tickets annually at a higher price point, that's a real mover of the needle," Mike Campbell, chief executive of Regal Entertainment Group, the nation's largest theater chain, said at the investors conference.

About 700 theaters across the country are now outfitted with 3-D technology, with thousands of others moving to spend the $17,000 needed to install the equipment.

Moviemakers, meanwhile, estimate that making a movie in 3-D can add as much as $15 million to the cost.

Today's 3-D technology is far more advanced than that used in the 1950s, the heyday of gimmicky 3-D films.

Previous 3-D systems projected two images on the movie screen, one for each eye. That required the use of red and blue lenses or even glasses with mechanized shutters that opened and closed quickly to separate the images.

With newer systems, moviegoers still need to don special glasses but not the cheap cardboard variety with blue and red lenses.

Instead, special polarized lenses will separate the stereo images projected on specially coated screens.

RealD, a Beverly Hills company, is the leader in modern 3-D with systems that will be operating on about 1,000 screens by the end of the year.

Its technology uses a special movie screen painted with a silver oxide to direct more light back to the viewer instead of scattering wavelengths the way normal screens do.

The theaters also use digital projectors that show movies stored in bits on a computer hard disk rather than traditional film.

Dolby Laboratories Inc. recently unveiled plans to market its own 3-D technology that would work with existing movie screens.

"The momentum is gathering, and I think this is probably the most exciting thing from a filmmaking and filmgoing experience that has happened in my time in the business," Katzenberg said. "There's nothing more compelling than this."



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Bobby Henderson
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 - posted 04-09-2007 09:55 AM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Gary Gentile, AP
Some industry executives think theaters can add as much as 50 percent to the cost of a ticket for a 3-D feature.
If movie studios and movie theaters start price gouging for 3D movie tickets they'll run a very strong risk of driving away lots of audiences.

A buck or two tacked onto the standard ticket price might be able to fly, but not much more than that. I'm even wondering if the couple bucks extra added to the ticket price will remain tolerable to viewers once the novelty of this version of 3D wears off. We're talking resultant ticket prices that equal that charged for a IMAX-3D show.

And then there's the issue of the glasses that customers can keep. Many feel they're paying the higher ticket price to offset the cost of the 3D glasses. How many people are going to show up at the box office to see another RealD format movie with glasses they already have and requesting the $2 additional fee be waived?

My advice to those bean counters is to do a lot of research in the trenches before they even think about adding up to 50 more on a movie ticket's price for 3D. I think they're overly optimistic in their assumption of what the market will really bear.

quote: Gary Gentile, AP
Its technology uses a special movie screen painted with a silver oxide to direct more light back to the viewer instead of scattering wavelengths the way normal screens do.
According to comments in a video about RealD made by Lenny Lipton, Chief Technology Officer at RealD, the new "silver screens" being installed for RealD really aren't silver at all. The highly reflective surface is actually an aluminum-based coating and not silver at all. The "silver screen" term is just something that stuck.

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Mike Blakesley
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 - posted 04-09-2007 11:23 AM      Profile for Mike Blakesley   Author's Homepage   Email Mike Blakesley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Any boxoffice person who tells the public that the extra $ is "to pay for the glasses" is a dope. Just tell the people that 3D is more expensive to make and the equipment to show it costs $40,000 more than "regular" equipment, plus there are those mysterious yearly fees.

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Bobby Henderson
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 - posted 04-09-2007 11:26 AM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Even if no one at the theater tells customers why the tickets cost more, many customers are going to arrive at the simple conclusion they're paying extra for those glasses.

Most RealD equipped theaters don't have to deal with this issue right now, but I'll bet it turns up this fall when at least 2 or 3 different RealD movies are released.

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Mike Blakesley
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 - posted 04-09-2007 03:46 PM      Profile for Mike Blakesley   Author's Homepage   Email Mike Blakesley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thing is, most recent 3D experiments like "Spy Kids 3-D" didn't require any special theatre equipment, where this new deal does, so people should be made aware. A lobby sign or something, at least. Otherwise the stupid media will jump on the old "we're getting ripped off at the movies again" bandwagon, if they haven't already.

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Dustin Mitchell
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 - posted 04-09-2007 06:10 PM      Profile for Dustin Mitchell   Email Dustin Mitchell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
For what its worth it is Carmike's policy to make sure people are NOT told they are pwying for the glasses; the extra cost is to be attributed to the fact the movie is in 3D.

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Chris Slycord
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 - posted 04-14-2007 03:08 PM      Profile for Chris Slycord   Email Chris Slycord   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Bobby Henderson
I'm even wondering if the couple bucks extra added to the ticket price will remain tolerable to viewers once the novelty of this version of 3D wears off.
By that time, won't the digital cinemas and 3d be more common anyway? And if 3d is commonly available, then I'd imagine that the price of the 3d tickets will be lower, likely comparable to current ticket prices.

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Bobby Henderson
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 - posted 04-14-2007 05:58 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
RealD will have to rethink the pricing on their equipment and royalty fees if Dolby's 3D format (nearing release) gives them a lot of competition.

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Chris Slycord
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 - posted 04-15-2007 03:36 AM      Profile for Chris Slycord   Email Chris Slycord   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Even if it doesn't, they'll still have to rethink it. People right now are willing to pay the premium because it's something new. People understand that a new technology costs quite a bit. But they expect the price to go down eventually. Regardless of if the real price of the technology goes down or not the people will expect it to happen with time and will expect the price to go down. So eventually, they'll say "If the price has gone down why hasn't ours. This is much like people have done with gasoline in the States. They'll see on the news that the price of crude went down on a certain day and their price on gas didn't drop a bit, but they didn't understand the fact that the gas they buy today was purchased as crude weeks ago when the wholesale price was still high.

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Michael Coate
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 - posted 04-18-2007 04:16 AM      Profile for Michael Coate   Email Michael Coate   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
LA TIMES story on D-Cinema's progress:

quote:

Showing at theaters: urgency of digital shift

By Josh Friedman, Times Staff Writer
April 9, 2007

The revolution in moviegoing will be digital, theater owner Bill Campbell knows.

But Campbell, who runs independent theaters in Sheridan, Wyo., and Miles City, Mont., isn't ready to take up such an expensive cause just yet.

"I'm still using film projectors that were built in the 1950s and I can fix them myself," Campbell said. "What if your digital server goes down? Dark screens are death to the theater industry."

For moviegoers, Hollywood's shift to digital cinema will mean clearer pictures, more 3-D offerings, movie houses that can easily add to the number of theaters showing popular films and event programs such as sports and concerts.

For theater owners, it means lower costs because prints will be eliminated. It also creates a new marketing hook to get people into the seats.

With incentives like that, the movie industry's transformation from prints to digital projectors logically should take place sooner, not later. But for nearly a decade it has been hampered by the high cost to convert and disputes over how studios and exhibitors will foot the bill.

Finally, however, digital cinema is slowly gaining traction despite holdouts such as Campbell. About 4,000 of the world's roughly 150,000 screens are digitally equipped compared with 1,700 a year ago, according to Texas Instruments Inc., which licenses the leading digital cinema technology.

By year-end the chip company expects the count to reach 7,000, with the majority of those conversions in the U.S., which has about 38,000 screens overall.

After moving at a snail's pace, the transition has taken on a new urgency as theater owners compete with increasingly sophisticated home entertainment systems and other diversions such as video games and the Internet. Digital cinema was front and center at the recent ShoWest industry conference for exhibitors in Las Vegas, with much of the discussion about the $100,000 cost per screen.

If the switch takes an exceptionally long time, "I believe there will not be a cinema business here anymore," said Drew Kaza, an executive vice president at British theater chain Odeon Cinemas Ltd., addressing attendees at the conference. "We've got to get real about this."

But digital boosters say the industry is finally getting serious about the conversion.

"There is typically a love-hate relationship between studios and exhibitors, but this time they're working together to make sure it happens," said Shea Wallon, vice president of the sports and entertainment group at GE Commercial Finance, a backer of digital cinema.

GE Commercial last year provided a $217-million credit line for Christie Digital Systems Inc. and Access Integrated Technologies Inc., which are rapidly installing their projectors and servers in theaters.

Hollywood and theater owners see huge potential benefits.

Studios eventually could save a total of $1 billion a year in distribution costs. Producing and shipping 35-millimeter films costs roughly $1,200 per print, but sending digital files or satellite transmissions can slash that expense by 90%, according to industry estimates.

For now the savings are theoretical as studios make a long-term bet on the benefits of digital. They are subsidizing the installation of digital systems at U.S. theater chains by paying "virtual print fees" to the manufacturers, and they still must make thousands of film prints.

Cheaper distribution could enable smaller films to be screened more widely, said John Fithian, president of the National Assn. of Theatre Owners. The high cost of distribution is a major impediment to independent films, he said.

Helping give the conversion a boost is the resurgence of 3-D films, which today are shown predominantly in digitally equipped theaters. In its opening weekend, Walt Disney Co.'s animated "Meet the Robinsons" grossed an average of $12,200 per theater at the almost 600 digital theaters showing it in 3-D — more than double the average gross at regular theaters. Some theaters were able to hike ticket prices 20%.

Directors Robert Zemeckis and James Cameron are making big-budget 3-D movies. DreamWorks Animation SKG Inc. said its whole slate would be shot in that format starting in 2009.

Beyond 3-D, programming flexibility is one of the biggest appeals of digitally equipped theaters. Alternative entertainment such as sporting events could be shown during the day or on nights when moviegoing is light.


Cineplex Entertainment, Canada's largest theater chain, has been screening "WrestleMania" matches for several years. Recently it added hockey games, rock concerts and simulcasts of New York's Metropolitan Opera.

The opera has been shown on as many as four multiplex screens at a time to accommodate matinee crowds, said spokeswoman Pat Marshall, adding that it brings in a new demographic.

Ultimately, theater owners see their multiplexes thriving as broadly defined entertainment destinations.

"The world is getting so competitive," said Michael Whalen, president of Muvico Theaters, which is installing Sony Electronics' "4K" digital system at its new Chicago multiplex. He said cinemas needed to improve the moviegoing experience amid competition from better home-entertainment systems and shorter time spans between a film's theatrical release and its DVD debut.

Whalen dreams of packed houses for events such as NBA games or the Super Bowl in 3-D.

Technological issues remain formidable, however.

For now, loading or moving a digital movie can take hours because of the massive file size, said Michael Karagosian, a consultant to the theater industry. A 35-millimeter film print, by contrast, can be moved in 15 minutes. In addition, converting older, smaller systems to digital remains a problem.

Ultimately, the hope is that a multiplex will be able to move a surprise hit to its biggest auditorium, or demote a flop to the smallest, almost instantly with just a few keyboard strokes.

Studios gush about how crisp and pristine a digital movie remains even after hundreds of screenings, but not every filmmaker is sold on its superiority.

Paramount Pictures has released digital versions of almost every movie since last summer's "Mission: Impossible III," said Mark Christiansen, vice president of operations at the studio.

But when it screened Clint Eastwood's World War II drama "Flags of Our Fathers" digitally before last fall's release, the director and his team balked.

"They just didn't think it gave the same visceral feeling," Christiansen said. "We're always going to listen to the filmmakers."

Despite the uncertainties, manufacturers and theater owners expect the digital deployment to accelerate further in 2008 and 2009. The majority of the world's screens will be digital within five years, Texas Instruments predicts.

"The good news is, the momentum is there," theater industry consultant Karagosian said. "Five years ago, I couldn't say that."


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Mike Blakesley
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 - posted 04-18-2007 10:18 AM      Profile for Mike Blakesley   Author's Homepage   Email Mike Blakesley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I know Bill Campbell. What he's really saying is, "how can I possibly afford to switch with no help from the studios?" Because that's how it's starting to look for the small towns. NATO's lawyers should be keeping an eye on this aspect of the conversion, if their talk about representing ALL exhibitors, large and small, is true.

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John T. Hendrickson, Jr
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Right on, Mike!

They should, but they probably will not. It's not just the small folks who are getting short-changed. At our independent complex, redoing 13 screens at $100,000 per is out of the question. And yet, what happens when the big guys in our area go digital? Will we be able to hang in?

Our presentation is top-notch. We would be spending 1.3 mil to duplicate quality. INSANE! [Mad]

Glad I'm not an owner.

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