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Author Topic: Any Advantage to 4K Now? Lyle Romer Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1400 From: Davie, FL, USA Registered: May 2002 posted 05-14-2009 08:40 AM                     Mark is correct. I meant my statement more in the way that if Christie, Barco, NEC etc. had 4k projectors within $10k each of the 2k models then everybody would pay the extra $10k and install 4k.  |  IP: Logged Frank Angel Film God Posts: 5305 From: Brooklyn NY USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-19-2009 11:50 AM                        Or....Washington can do like they did for TV and just decree that by a date certian, all theatrical projection will have to converted to Super High Definition 8K. Period. Cars have to get at least 35mpg and theatres will have to project at at least 8K. While they are at it, they can also decree that an IMAX screen has to be at least 70feet tall. End of discussion -- after all, that's what government is for.  |  IP: Logged James B Gardiner Film Handler Posts: 91 From: North Altona, Victoria, Ausrtalia Registered: Feb 2009 posted 05-24-2009 09:27 AM                     Sony is taking a bold step here. If one considers all the Sony Tech support departments around the world going bust as TAPE goes the way of the DODO, this could be a make or break move for Sony to re-invent itself, giving all this infrastructure new life supporting the cinema infrastructure. Sony is basically making this happen by throughing money at it. In the long term, if they capture 60% of the industry, its a win. Especially as it keeps the SONY brand king. As Dolby bows out and fails to archive the domestic branding it has been attempting to archive (Ie Dolby Plasma's etc failed to take of), Sony will take its place on the exhibition side and garanttee its brand on the domestic, TV/consumer elec side. DCI supports open standards, and consumer elec kit is bound to follow. No more Dolby-digital logo and $5 cost for every DVD player sold. (Thank god). So I expect more of this. And, is it that bad. Sony tends to do a great job on the 3 or 4th attempt. (see this old post on my blog. http://www.crafted.com.au/blog/2008/03/09/sony-makes-a-decent-vtr-%E2%80%93-about-time/) Tho Sony Kit is expensive in general.. I get the opinion that the current 4K kit still has some large technical issues compared to DLP 2K. But hell, 4K must have some price to its technical advantages. James  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 05-24-2009 12:17 PM                     Dolby still has a foothold in digital cinema via its own d-cinema server system and Dolby 3D -although it largely centered around 2K projectors like Christie's CP2000 product lineup. I only see Dolby getting into trouble if Hollywood movie studios do like they did a few years ago when they pulled the plug on 1280 X 1024 resolution DLP systems and end up doing the same with 2K based units in favor of 4K. I don't think chances are good such a thing will happen anytime soon. As I've said previously, very few movies have digital intermediates and CGI rendered in 4K. The vast majority of movies are merely 2K. So there's really very little marketing advantage in a movie theater circuit trumpeting "4K" in their ads unless they're showing native 4K content. 4K resolution would be better for digital cinema, provided the other elements of the picture (color quality, contrast, brightness, etc.) were as good or better than any 2K setup. 35mm prints would look better if they were laser recorded with 4K material rather than the usual 2K stuff. In that regard, if 4K use became common then 2K systems would be at a disadvantage to both 4K d-cinema systems and 35mm projection. I think Sony is making a potentially bad mistake by making its 4K system closed and compatible only with Sony-branded hardware. It will open the door for competitors like Christie, NEC, etc. to develop their own 4K projectors that will work with a variety of d-cinema servers. I would be surprised if those companies (and Dolby as well) weren't already at work investigating what they can do with 4K.  |  IP: Logged James B Gardiner Film Handler Posts: 91 From: North Altona, Victoria, Ausrtalia Registered: Feb 2009 posted 05-25-2009 07:19 AM                     Dolby make very good, over the top kit. This is why no big chain is purchasing it. Tho independents who love their Dolby are willing to drop the extra 5-10k for the name. Dolby kit is over engineered in that. Its the most expensive kit because it has to be based on the hardware that goes into it. Tho, as a cinema chain, you never purchase the most expensive. You purchase what works at the best price. Dolby is not it. Dolby is also rumoured to be bleeding badly from its digital division. So. Dolby is not looking to bright right now. But it could change. They could re-group and come oout with a surprise. They have the Tech. Its just not in the right package currently. Right now its a race to the bottom for DCI media players. Who can make something that works well enough but is also the cheapest. Dorami a good example of this. James  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 05-26-2009 08:52 AM                     James, You overlook one VERY important point though... If Cinemark signs with Sony for 4K (very likely) it will more then likely spell the end of all 2K since there is then no real market left for it. Certainly not enough market to sustain DLP and still having made no profit T.I. would probably be the first to pull the plug. HEnce all the servers, and most other related items would vanish in a quick poof. Mark  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 05-26-2009 09:05 AM                     Don't some of the existing servers, such as the Doremi DCP2000, have the ability to down-sample 4K content and output it as 2K for 2K projectors?  |  IP: Logged Julio Roberto Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 938 From: Madrid, Madrid, Spain Registered: Oct 2008 posted 05-26-2009 10:11 AM                    AFAIK, all Dcinema players must be able to decode 4K content to be DCI compatible. Another thing is if they have to downsample it to 2K fit a dual HD-SDI stream if not equipped with quad HD-SDI outputs. Even if equipped with quad outputs, they still may have decided to offer the 4K output as an option and force 2K output unless you pay extra. But DCI specs say all players must be able to decode 2K, 2K 48fps (3D) and 4K or they are not DCI. If I understood correctly. Both, 2K and 4K are explicitly supported by DCI and, thus, not likely to "dissapear" overnight, as support is mandatory. From "day one", "universal" support for 4K delivery packages playback was "guaranteed" by DCI. Of course, no real sweat on a player capable of 4K to scale down the output to 2K to support whatever 2K devices may be in existence in the future. I wonder if there is ever a 4K (non-Sony) projector what interface they'll settle for. Would need something encrypted (á la Cinelink) and either non standard quad-hd-sdi or non-standard 3G-SDI, but Quad-HD-SDI, even if non-standard, doesn't quite cover the full 4K at 4:4:4 12 bits ... Octo-DC-SDI? Lol Let's not forget 4K is FOUR times the amount of pixels of 2K, not two times the amount of pixels ... Talking 2.2 millions of pixels against 8.8 Millions ... Full support for 4K on players has been spotty not because they have any trouble decoding it ... but because there is no projector that can take the input. Sony has external 4K input (dual channel SRLV), but it is not Cinelink encrypted. Cinelink II is a Texas Instruments "exclusive" encryption scheme that meets DCI security demands while being implemented over dual HD-SDI serial digital transport. So Sony can only playback (encrypted) DCP's from the internal player, which has its own, propietary encrypted path and transport protocol to the projector head. It can project unencrypted (no chance for Hollywood movies) 4K or 2K from an external player, provided fitted with the appropiate outputs or a (theoretical) convertion box if necessary (for 4K, 2K is standard dual channel HD/SC-SDI or DVI, but unencrypted only).  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 05-26-2009 12:18 PM                     James, It ain't just going to be Dolby bowing out... it'll be the entire 2K industry that goes up in a quick atomic poof if T.I. pulls the plug. Manufacturers, dealers, et all. The only thing that will be left are the techs and Sony will need them badly to make this all happen. I bet they buy us cheap at a slave auction! Julio, Isn't Sony going to the Media Block type of arrangement on the latest projectors? Thats what a Sony tech told me not long ago... So that precludes the use or need for any of the other servers on the market... Seems like they are heading towards a monolopy...  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-26-2009 09:38 PM                     Yep...the LMS-200 is what currently ships with the SRX-R220. It handles the cinema content and also there are dual DVI and HDSDI inputs for "alternative content." Note, they don't have dual 3G SDI inputs nor 4 HDSDI inputs so you can use an alternative 4K source! A surprise to some that I'm working with. Steve  |  IP: Logged Julio Roberto Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 938 From: Madrid, Madrid, Spain Registered: Oct 2008 posted 05-26-2009 10:32 PM                    Yeah, It's kind of ... hmmm ... retarded I think I must say, to have a 4K projector out in the market and not been able to input a 4K signal in any reasonable form unless it's coming from their media player. Heck, it doesn't even offer a HD (or 2K) encrypted input. It only does well unencrypted DCinema (2K, 12 bits, 4:4:4 over dual DC-SDI), HD (over dual or single HD-SDI) and DVI (up to 2K). No HDMI, no HDCP, no Cinelink (no surprise there, TI will not license it nor will Sony want it), no 3G-SDI, no Quad-HD/DC-SDI, although it would need 4 of the former and 8 of the latter to fit the full 4:4:4 4K at 12bits... Just the dual SRLV is the only input for the 4K and so far only their LMS-200 player can use it ...  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-26-2009 10:45 PM                     Despite their current web site...the current DVI inputs on the SRX-R210/220 ARE HDCP compliant...so at least Blu-Rays will work. Only on their A/V version can you load up 4 HDSDI or 4 DVI inputs to get 4K content. Note however...Sony is moving towards 3G SDI inputs so that issue may be resolved before the year is out. Steve  |  IP: Logged Julio Roberto Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 938 From: Madrid, Madrid, Spain Registered: Oct 2008 posted 05-26-2009 10:58 PM                    Good to know they at least support HDCP over the DVI ... I was pretty amazed they claimed they didn't in their manual, considering who the father of blu-ray is and their open embrace of the scheme ...  |  IP: Logged

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