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Topic: Software maintenance costs, get used to it....

Tony Bandiera Jr
Film God

Posts: 3067
From: Moreland Idaho
Registered: Apr 2004

posted 07-20-2009 04:32 PM

LOL Louis, don't mention the "P" word!! [Big Grin]

You hit the nail on the head though..I think that's exactly what's going to happen.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-20-2009 10:03 PM

quote: Ron Curran
Mark, if your scenario eventuates, there would be a lot of screens (say less than 30 foot wide) that would instal low-cost 2k units.

Do you really think theater owners are stupid enough to pay 70 grand for a 2K system when for 13K more or perhaps a bit less in quantity per screen they can have ALL 4K and market it as such. The marketing hype behind all 4K if done right could present a good return. And that 13K per screen is chicken feed in the budget of a 20 or more screen multiplex. They won't be able to market their 2K systems as anything other then not much to look at!

Tony...
I'm still not a fan of Sony but you have to stop and realize they have been really quite as to any details on anything. Obviously they are not promising anything here far as I know! I think that silently among Sony bra ss the SDDS debacle has caused them to be this waythis time round. Bring up SDDS in any Sony D-Cinema booth at a trade show and they say they never heard of it or SDDS [Big Grin]

. Must have been before they worked for SOny... [Roll Eyes]

.

Sony's biggest problem is still one of inconsistent pricing and they've made alot of prospects really mad at them already... somehow they'll have to iron that over if they want to sell systems to other chains and large independents... there is an end to installing D-Cinema even in the big chains afterall and they may eventually need those twins and four plexs!! I know of one not very large but national chain that gets the 4K systems for about 72K each, then they quote a 100 screen chain I know of 83.5K per unit... go figure... where are their brains(and marketing dept.) at??? I can answer that actually. The people they have working the trade show floor are not allowed to have brains and the marketing department is sipping cocktails out on the hotel patio or swimming pool area.

Christie, Barco, and NEC had better get off their duffs and really sharpen their pencils anyway because somehow they are going to have to build really really cheap 2K projectors if they want to sell 2K at all or shold I say if they want 2K to even survive... at any rate the 4K DLP will have to find a way to compete price for price with Sony's 4K pricing... what ever that is at any given moment.

The server manufacturers have it a bit easier and they can go the route of the media block system instead. This could completely eliminate the server as we know it all together. The media block itself plugs right into the projector card cage and is fed from a bunch of off the shelf stock servers you can practically buy at Wal-Mart.

As much as I am very pro D-Cinema and have installed a bunch of them I am for now advising all my customers to sit on the fnece post for at least a year minimum. Or should we say to wait to see how the 4K DLP shapes up in all aspects and see how pricing and such irons itself out... if it does. If pricing doesn't iron itself out then to be honest D-Cinema has a very dim future.

Mark

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 07-21-2009 07:12 AM

Are you saying $13K a screen more for 4K? I haven't known an exhibitor yet that didn't want to save $5/screen. I've had exhibitors tell me that nobody's platter is worth $100 more than another and they went with the junk instead of the good stuff.

I don't see advertising "All 4K" having much pull on the audience for very long though it might do something at first. Kind of like "all digital sound." There is a brief period where that can make a difference and then enough of the screens are digital in the industry as to not make it worth one's while to advertise it and furthermore, enough of the large theatres (the ones that play the movie first) have it that those that waited several weeks typically don't notice or care that their sound system, along with the theatre, is a bit smaller. I know one very shrewd exhibitor that always builds his complexes with 3 tiers of theatres...Big, medium and small. To this day, none of the small theatres have digital sound. He can show you...it won't make any difference on ticket sales at that stage and he is right...his theatres do very well.

Steve

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-21-2009 08:20 AM

Note that I said 13K or less in quantity. It would be 13K in single quantity. Do the math for instance on the AMC deal where there was a figure mentioned which I don't remember off the top of my head for the purchase of all the 4K projectors and I think it works out to something like 54K per system, may have been even less than that. So if they are going to equip an entire say 150 to 200 screen chain it should be substantially less then 83.5K and could be down in the price regeion of a 2K system and possibly lower. That small national chain I mentioned was paying about 72K per 4K system! This is why the pricing on the new 4K DLP has to be near sony's single projector pricing of 83.5 and even that need be pretty dam flexible in quantity and they'll have to drop 2K quite substantially in price to be able to sell any at all or Sony will win this round.

What ever happens this time round its still the best time since D-Cinema was introduced to just wait and see what happens both equipment wise and price wise. 40K per 2K system makes it far more practical for mom and pop.

Mark

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-21-2009 11:30 AM

quote: Steve Guttag
I don't see advertising "All 4K" having much pull on the audience for very long though it might do something at first.

I don't agree with that...I would think 99.9% of people have no clue what "4K" means with regard to cinema. It even confuses me, and I've read a lot about DC.

I remember my first computer had 640k of memory, which I know has nothing to do with DC, but just having that number swimming around in the back of my memories makes the term "4K" sound underwhelming.

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Jack Ondracek
Film God

Posts: 2348
From: Port Orchard, WA, USA
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 07-21-2009 01:06 PM

Having been a long-term advocate of "fence-sitting", I find it a sad validation of my attitude that the big boys should work this out before I consider what digital might bring to my future. While many in this industry, exhibitors manufacturers and pundits alike have prognosticated overnight acceptance of video and impending doom for anyone not jumping on the train NOW, my approach has been much better for my blood pressure.

Comments about whether 3D makes the exhibitor any money are amusing to me. Maybe the concept provides an additional PR exposure to the theatre, but I'm doubtful that most theatres are adding real money to their bottom lines. Once you pay off all the companies that have inserted themselves into your revenue stream, I'm not convinced the technology is covering it.

Film and film/sound projection equipment evolved over many decades, while remaining largely backward-compatible. Seems a bit disturbing that digital R&D is being cut back already.

The wife says she could seriously consider digital, once 4K becomes more "affordable" (a concept not yet clearly defined here). I would add that 4K is going to have to be widely available from more than just Sony before I'd go anywhere near it.

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Martin McCaffery
Film God

Posts: 2481
From: Montgomery, AL
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-21-2009 01:11 PM

quote: Steve Guttag
I don't see advertising "All 4K" having much pull on the audience

Yeah, sorta like the "Cinemascope" and "In Color" marquee signs I now have in my house [Wink]

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Chris Slycord
Film God

Posts: 2986
From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 07-21-2009 01:44 PM

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Sony's biggest problem is still one of inconsistent pricing and they've made alot of prospects really mad at them already... somehow they'll have to iron that over if they want to sell systems to other chains and large independents... there is an end to installing D-Cinema even in the big chains afterall and they may eventually need those twins and four plexs!! I know of one not very large but national chain that gets the 4K systems for about 72K each, then they quote a 100 screen chain I know of 83.5K per unit... go figure... where are their brains(and marketing dept.) at???

While I understand where you're coming from (wanting all the customers treated equally), this is a bit like being mad at my local Whole Foods grocery for giving someone a 10% off for buying a case of rice milk and giving me no discount if I only buy one container.

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John T. Hendrickson, Jr
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 889
From: Freehold, NJ, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 07-21-2009 03:29 PM

I'm sort of at a loss over all of this. We just completed a 2K install (for 3D). Our other 12 screens are 35MM. I look at the regular 2K picture, then peek out the port of the 35MM next to it, and guess what? My old eyes must deceive me, because to me, the 35MM looks better.

The 3D looks ok, but it doesn't blow me away.

Admittedly, I have not seen 4K. However, I don't know of any other theater in the area that has it (as yet). When that does happen, I'll surely take a look for myself.

For the price of the single installation, I am at a loss to figure out how our owners are ever going to recoup the investment. There are several other 2K 3D installations in the area, so the new 3D install was simply done to keep the customer base from migrating to the competition. Therefore, what have our owners gained other than to remain in the theater business?

So where is the pot gold at the end of the rainbow? I've seen a lot of rainbows in my lifetime, and I have not heard of anyone finding that gold yet.

Economically speaking, it would simply not pay our owners to go all digital. Perhaps they may be forced to at some future date. To me, that "force" seems to be coming from the distributors.

Just my humble opinion. Hope the studios don't put out a contract on me. [Eek!]

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-21-2009 03:52 PM

quote: Chris Slycord
While I understand where you're coming from (wanting all the customers treated equally), this is a bit like being mad at my local Whole Foods grocery for giving someone a 10% off for buying a case of rice milk and giving me no discount if I only buy one container.

I don't think you quite got the drift of my post. The 2K companies seem to have the single lot pricing nailed down pretty well as well as quantity pricing. Now some dealers do get bigger discounts then others based on units sold over a one or two year period. However, Sony is all over the place. When I mentioned the 100+ screen chain even if they did all 100+ screens at one time the price was still 83.5K per unit... Why is the other smaller national chain paying 73K per unit for less units bought, they have less than a dozen of them??? See what I mean... go figure.

quote: John T. Hendrickson, Jr
I look at the regular 2K picture, then peek out the port of the 35MM next to it, and guess what? My old eyes must deceive me, because to me, the 35MM looks better.

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Chris Slycord
Film God

Posts: 2986
From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 07-21-2009 04:08 PM

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
When I mentioned the 100+ screen chain even if they did all 100+ screens at one time the price was still 83.5K per unit... Why is the other smaller national chain paying 73K per unit for less units bought, they have less than a dozen of them??? See what I mean... go figure.

While I know as much info as you've given me, I imagine that the one 100 screen chain negotiated the price with respect to the amount of screens they were going to roll out.

And how would I have known that the "small national chain" was only rolling out a dozen of them? I assumed this was a price they got in lieu of doing an entire-chain roll out and as such I assumed that this price was given to them based on the number of screens they were going to do the switch on.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-21-2009 06:56 PM

You should go and and read the posts again. I said they'd be doing the entire 100+ screen chain. That didn't change the price...

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John T. Hendrickson, Jr
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 889
From: Freehold, NJ, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 07-22-2009 03:07 PM

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen was the last to post

Don't ever judge by a 3D anything. Wait till you run a 2-D movie on the thing. You're comparing a Chevy Vega and a Chrysler Town And Country... Neither is very good but in many cases the 2-K digital will look far better then todays crappy release print which was generated fomr a 2K intermediate and has gone on to loose even more resolution in high speed printing, suffered a major color shift, and perhaps gained some bounce to it.

Mark

I didn't judge "by a 3D anything."

I wrote: "I look at the regular 2K picture, then peek out the port of the 35MM next to it, and guess what? My old eyes must deceive me, because to me, the 35MM looks better."

That is judging a 2K digital picture against a 35MM presentation in the house next to it. Screen sizes are approximately the same, too.

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Chris Slycord
Film God

Posts: 2986
From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 07-22-2009 04:03 PM

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
You should go and and read the posts again. I said they'd be doing the entire 100+ screen chain. That didn't change the price...

I read that part just fine. It seems you don't understand at all what I'm saying.

It seems as if you're assuming that because Company A got a lower price and has currently only rolled out a handful of screens that this means that the lower price was only based on them rolling out those handful of screens when it wouldn't be all that shocking if they got a low price for the whole chain and then only have started replacing stuff slowly.

And I have no idea how many screens are in this company since the only one you've specified is the one with "100+ screens." I imagine the company in question has significantly more than 100 screens and so the negotiation of price seems reasonable. Now if the "small national chain" is smaller than I think, then I'm wrong on this, but otherwise I don't see what the big deal is.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-22-2009 11:14 PM

Chris,

Of course the national chain I'm mentioning is smaller than the 100+ screen chain...

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