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This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
Author Topic: Solving 3D problems
Kris Verhanneman
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 182
From: Belgium
Registered: Dec 2009


 - posted 01-23-2010 02:00 PM      Profile for Kris Verhanneman   Email Kris Verhanneman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brad,
this used to be the case where I work up until not so very long.
We proposed a 3D version on a dolby 3D screen (so not a very big theater, 300 seats) and a 2D version on a bigger screen (700 seats). In numbers it was indeed the 2D version that won.

Now it's a bit differend with Avatar. Now we propose 4 screens for Avatar 3D (1500 seats) and still the big screen in 2D (700 seats).
In numbers: Avatar is selling the best in 3D.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 01-23-2010 02:55 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have no doubt that it will vary by title and also as people loose fascination with the 3D gimmick.

I know my wife (theatre manager) want to be able to offer some show times in 2D just to satisfy all customers. I know my son really doesn't want to fool with the 3D glasses (he tolerates them a little now but a year ago...not a chance).

Steve

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Elise Brandt
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 160
From: Kuusankoski, FIN/ Kouvola, Finland
Registered: Dec 2009


 - posted 01-24-2010 02:15 AM      Profile for Elise Brandt   Email Elise Brandt   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you Julio, yet again! And Kris, I have a guy with a meter coming in next week so I can satisfy my curiosity.

Seriously? 2D show sold better than 3D? I cannot imagine, but I'll put that down to a huge difference in audiences. I guess we have all the 3D nuts here [Big Grin] let's see what happens.

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David Stone
Film Handler

Posts: 75
From: Hornsby, Sydney, Australia
Registered: Jun 2008


 - posted 01-24-2010 02:31 AM      Profile for David Stone   Email David Stone   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Further to the 3D 2D debate, BVI in Australia informed me that they will supply me Alice in Wonderland 3D, but can't for reasons only they know supply me a 2D drive to play selected sessions in 2D. However they are happy to supply the multi a 3D drive and a 35mm 2D print.
Basically if I screen the film on 35mm I can run 2D, but if I screen it 3D I can't run any 2D sessions...Can anyone explain the logic.

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Elise Brandt
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 160
From: Kuusankoski, FIN/ Kouvola, Finland
Registered: Dec 2009


 - posted 01-24-2010 10:13 AM      Profile for Elise Brandt   Email Elise Brandt   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I can only assume the logic behind the decision not to make any digital 2D copies is the utmost faith in the audience preferring 3D whenever possible. Plus the fact that some theaters (like ours) can show the 3D copy in 2D as well. Don't ask. I have no idea why some couldn't. I didn't believe it was actually possible, I thought there'd be color issues or something if you tried to run a 3D dopy just switching the settings on 2D but no, looks just fine... *shrugs* I'd be willing to bet that someone here can explain that one. As for me, I take what works and question later.

I know I'm a rookie here, and one that can't shut up on top of that. Sorry [Big Grin]

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 01-24-2010 10:23 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm certainly no digital cinema expert, but there should be no reason why the 3D and 2D versions cannot coexist in a single copy. There should never be any need for a 2D-only copy. A simple firmware update would fix this on any DCP server.

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Mark J. Marshall
Film God

Posts: 3188
From: New Castle, DE, USA
Registered: Aug 2002


 - posted 01-24-2010 10:43 AM      Profile for Mark J. Marshall     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
2D basically means you're only showing one eye. There's no reason I can think of not to have that as a switch in the software.

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Kris Verhanneman
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 182
From: Belgium
Registered: Dec 2009


 - posted 01-24-2010 12:19 PM      Profile for Kris Verhanneman   Email Kris Verhanneman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well it's not that simpel.

Yes you can project a 3D film in 2D.
There is a loss in color depth (the coding is in 4.2.2 in stead of 4.4.4).
Will people see it on the screen?

Is there a problem with the movie rights? Yes.
The licence (key, KDM) you were given was for a 3D screening.

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Elise Brandt
Expert Film Handler

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From: Kuusankoski, FIN/ Kouvola, Finland
Registered: Dec 2009


 - posted 01-24-2010 01:29 PM      Profile for Elise Brandt   Email Elise Brandt   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Does that make a difference, which format the KDM was for, is it even mentioned anywhere at your end? For example here it's all the same, the license is for that movie, for a certain time window and that's it. Is it really different somewhere? Do distributords not trust theaters to make that call, in which format to show the movie? It's in both their interests to make as much money off it as possible after all. Assuming there is no loss of quality in the showing that the audience can tell, that is.

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Kris Verhanneman
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 182
From: Belgium
Registered: Dec 2009


 - posted 01-24-2010 01:57 PM      Profile for Kris Verhanneman   Email Kris Verhanneman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
No answer to this one. You should ask a distributor what he thinks of this.

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Elise Brandt
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 160
From: Kuusankoski, FIN/ Kouvola, Finland
Registered: Dec 2009


 - posted 01-24-2010 02:20 PM      Profile for Elise Brandt   Email Elise Brandt   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The issue has never come up as we have shown the same movies in both formats and sent the numbers directly to the distributors. I don't think this is an issue that has been raised at all in their midst, now that you mentioned it. I see it more than possible that many procedures differ here and your part of the world, and even more in the US. Interesting point, though.

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Mark J. Marshall
Film God

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From: New Castle, DE, USA
Registered: Aug 2002


 - posted 01-24-2010 10:51 PM      Profile for Mark J. Marshall     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My comments were meant purely from a technical perspective. It should be technically possible to show only one eye. Whether or not it can... I have no idea. Whether or not you're allowed to... I have no idea. And a loss in color - well, you're showing DLP which doesn't have the color range of 35mm, so in a way you already decided that doesn't matter. [Razz]

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John Wilson
Film God

Posts: 5438
From: Sydney, Australia.
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 01-25-2010 03:21 AM      Profile for John Wilson   Email John Wilson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: David Stone
Further to the 3D 2D debate, BVI in Australia informed me that they will supply me Alice in Wonderland 3D, but can't for reasons only they know supply me a 2D drive to play selected sessions in 2D. However they are happy to supply the multi a 3D drive and a 35mm 2D print.
Basically if I screen the film on 35mm I can run 2D, but if I screen it 3D I can't run any 2D sessions...Can anyone explain the logic.

David

I can run a 3D version in 2D at Randwick and have done from time to time. It's really very simple...they're spinning you a line. Call me if you'd like more info.

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Frank Angel
Film God

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From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 01-26-2010 06:43 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There seems to be an opinion that 3D is, de facto, a gimmick. It didn't last in its previous incarnations because of the difficulty in the technical end of it and in the way Hollywood used it, i.e., the PFIYE (Poking Fingers In Your Eyeballs) Syndrom. Both those objections are not intrinsic to the process.

Digital 3D today is technically much less dependent on the expertise of people in the booth "getting it right" than the days of left eye/right eye prints, dual projectors and selsyn motors. As for directors not being able to resist throwing stuff at the audience, Cameron has proved that a movie can be made without exagerated 3D "effects," just like after the very early Technicolor films where it was obvious those bunches of multicolored flowers didn't always have to be in every scene just to show off the color process. Directors learned how to use the technology to enhance the story without drawing attention to it.

Yes, it's the story, stupid....and the characters. That's a given, but when you have a good story and interesting, developed characters, the technical tools can be used to enhance the experience and needn't be thrown out just because you have those other elements. Should we throw out color and stereo sound because we have a good story? Do we make movies in black and white because there is a percentage of people who are color blind or make them in mono because there is a percentage of the population who can't perceive stereo?

I think 3D has its place as a very effective tool that a director can now choose to use to tell that story. And now that presenting a 3D image is finally in a stage where it can be done easily and with repeatable accuracy, I don't think it will be the fad like the other incarnations were. And as we go along here, the technology will get even better, resolving the brightness issues and ghosting, etc.

As for the thing about how there are some people who always whine about "the glasses" and how they can't stand them. Give me a break. Do these people not go to the beach and wear sunglassed for hours on end? Why are the 3D glasses any more uncomfortable? It's all perception and bias. The glasses I've gotten at each of the half dozen recent 3D films I have been to were perfectly comfortable and fit perfectly well over my regular glasses, just the way my sunglasses fit perfectly well over my regular glasses. If Hollywood continues to make popular 3D releases, a whole industry will grow up around making personal 3D designer 3D glasses, even clip-ons for regular glasses for those who prefer them. Theatres could even get in on the act and sell them in the lobby.

Will the 3D "fad" continue....did the color fad, or the wide screen fad or the stereo sound fad continue? Look, given the fact that producers will soon have the huge consumer home video market to sell their 3D product, no reason to believe they won't want to repeat the blockbuster "experience" the size of AVATAR; it's guaranteed they are going to want to do it over and over and over again).

And lets face it, Hollywood is not going to stop making 3D if it remains profitable just because a small minority of the general public is bothered by the process. They don't make blockbusters for a small nitch audience. Sure, they want that cash from the 10% who can't enjoy 3D, but they can still get at their pocketbooks thru other markets, like BluRay and the many other avenues thru which they can sell the 2D versions. They are not going to let their marketing decisions be determined by the minority. Just like the music industry didn't stop making CDs because a small minority of people claimed they hated the square wave sound of digital sampling instead of the smooth roundness of the analog wave (I have a friend who insists he can hear the square wave of a violin note on a CD playback). Neither will the movie industry stop making a film like ANATAR in 3D because a handful of people see temporal anomolies or seem to be incapable of wearing sun glasses.

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Ron Curran
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 504
From: Springwood NSW Australia
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted 01-26-2010 07:01 PM      Profile for Ron Curran   Author's Homepage   Email Ron Curran   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I do agree with Frank in principle. That is why we installed 4 track mag, then optical stereo, then SR, then dts, then DD.

Our dilemma with 3D is on we probably share with other single screen cinemas that have to share with a live theatre group. A silver screen would necessitate building a fly tower that would also then require a sprinkler system, adding about $70,000 to the cost, also considering frames, winches and controls.

The only logical option would be to go dci and Dolby 3D.

Unless some co-payment scheme evolves soon, I would have to live to about 127 for that to pay for it.

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