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Topic: How many Chains are now all digital?

Victor Liorentas
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 800
From: london ontario canada
Registered: May 2009

posted 06-30-2010 08:45 PM

I think the light integrating rod eats up some light and then the automatic light adjusting whosey whats it forces the bulbs to go brighter until it wears it out or something like that.
What i hear so far indicates a short bulb life on big screens adding up to a lot of money spent which could have paid my wage! [Frown]

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Louis Bornwasser
Film God

Posts: 4441
From: prospect ky usa
Registered: Mar 2005

posted 06-30-2010 09:35 PM

Thank you very much!! Our bulb sales are up 300% thanks to D-Cinema! Louis

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Mark J. Marshall
Film God

Posts: 3188
From: New Castle, DE, USA
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 06-30-2010 10:45 PM

So the lesson is - instead of paying a quality projectionist $60K a year, chains would rather install $150K DLP projectors in every theater (which will be obsolete much sooner than their film counterparts), and then spend much more money buying bulbs for the things too.

Nice. [Roll Eyes]

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Dustin Mitchell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1865
From: Mondovi, WI, USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 07-01-2010 12:36 AM

Louis, are your bulb sales up due to new installs or are you seeing a pattern of faster replacement?

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Tom Bert
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 134
From: Belgium
Registered: Apr 2010

posted 07-01-2010 03:15 AM

For a honest comparison, you should look at lm/W: how much output lumens per input watt. This tells you how efficient the setup is.

I know digital projection is around 4-7lm/W. Does anyone have numbers on 35mm?

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David Zylstra
Master Film Handler

Posts: 432
From: Novi, MI, USA
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 07-01-2010 03:30 AM

My lamp costs for digital are about 15%-20% higher than 35mm, but if I kept the same lamp sizes that the installers put on each screen we would be flat (they installed the same lamps that our 35mms used) - I found a few screens were borderline and went up a lamp size to more easily maintain 14FL over the lamp's life.

I suspect that some of my 35mms were borderline and the original designer opted for the smaller size rather than the higher.

I think since digital has an expriation notification we are seeing more lamps changed earlier than normal - i.e. 35mms lamps required someone to discern that the lamp needed to be changed; digital comes up with a flashing "lamp life expired" message which spurs the staff to immediately change the lamp because, after all, the computer says the lamp has is now bad, right?

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted 07-01-2010 04:28 AM

quote: Ron Curran
I don't understand why d-cinema projectors need such high Wattage bulbs

Light has to pass through, at least, 5 prisms before shooting out through the lens, where film, the light path is straight and direct from reflected source, through the lens and out to screen.

You bend light, you lose major luminance - with those ORC/CFS consoles with the vertical bulb in the bottom of the console shooting the light upward and the light then has to hit that angled mirror to be bent 90 degrees to shoot through the projector was the biggest disaster ever created.

quote: Dustin Mitchell
bulb sales up due to new installs or are you seeing a pattern of faster replacement

I would say that it's more of a huge bulk sale type of thing .. supply and demand.

quote: Mark J. Marshall
instead of paying a quality projectionist $60K a year, chains would rather install $150K DLP projectors in every theater (which will be obsolete much sooner than their film counterparts), and then spend much more money buying bulbs for the things too. Nice

Isn't it funny when logic and common sense seems to dissapate when money is being spent for something else - to make life easier?

quote: David Zylstra
message which spurs the staff to immediately change the lamp because, after all, the computer says the lamp has is now bad, right?

No, the bulb is not bad, BUT, the console is warning you about the bulb is getting close to warranty hours and needs to be pulled so the whole unit can be protected by the bulb manufacturer if the bulb blows and destroys $20k worth of of parts inside that the owner of the console would have to fork up to repair if that bulb was left in past warranty hours and desides to go. If an operator decides to leave a bulb in past warranty hours and that bulb lets go, does that much damage and almost bankrupts that theatre for repairs, you think that operator will have a job afterwards?

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Dustin Mitchell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1865
From: Mondovi, WI, USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 07-01-2010 06:21 AM

While I'm sure the glass reflectors in a CP-2000 aren't cheap we've had many bulb explosions (all under warranty, all from a certain manufacturer) and I'm pretty sure the repairs weren't 20k a piece.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 07-01-2010 07:18 AM

Lamp sizes on digital versus film are pretty close to each other now, in most projectors. That is, if you were hitting 16fL on a 2KW lamp for film...you'll hit your 14fL for digital...give or take. Some projectors are definitely more efficient than others.

3D is a bigger factor though...you need A LOT more light for 3D. Most of the systems are less than 20% efficient and will need a much larger lamp to overcome that.

When you get into specialty high-brightness lamps...they don't tend to last as long and again, 3D tends to have one running lamps at their upper limits...which makes them last even less. So you have to change lamps more often, typically.

Then there is the cost of the lamps themselves. Again, as you move into the special high-brightness lamps...you are buying inherently more expensive lamps so when you combine shorter life and more expensive...you get increased lamps sales with increased lamp costs.

The other odd thing I'm finding is that, even with the same lamp supplier, the cost of the lamps for the various brands of projectors, cost different (wildly) even in the same wattage. While in "film" lamps, within a manufacturer, a 4KW lamp will cost essentially the same, regardless if it is an HTP, HS or whatever fitting...that is NOT the case for DCinema where the same manufacturer will have three different prices for a 4KW lamp depending if it goes to a Barco, NEC, or Sony.

There is the risk of explosion. In a film system...if a lamp explodes and you are using the typical metal reflector...while it may get dinged up, put out less light and more heat...the show will go on. Unless the anode shoots into the shutter or something odd like that...with a film system, you are going to be out the cost of the lamp and possibly the reflector (presuming an out of warranty situation).

That is not the case with DCinema...the damage of a lamp explosion will amost certainly destroy the reflector, possibly the heat filter, possibly a folding mirror and even possibly an integrating rod. As some have found, if you have a 3D wheel in there...that may too be killed. Aside from the lamp...your potential damage typically STARTS at over $5K and can indeed get over $15K on just one explosion. As such, most will opt to change lamps within warranty to ensure that the lamp's warranty covers such damage.

Steve

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David Zylstra
Master Film Handler

Posts: 432
From: Novi, MI, USA
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 07-01-2010 08:29 AM

quote: Monte L Fullmer
No, the bulb is not bad, BUT, the console is warning you about the bulb is getting close to warranty hours and needs to be pulled so the whole unit can be protected by the bulb manufacturer

My statement was said jokingly as some of our less experienced staff tends to freak out way too much when they see the expiry message which is set for warranty +25% - some just don't get it that if the lamp runs fine and looks good they can schedule a lamp change in the next week or so rather than stop the show immediately and change it . . . . . also, many installs might have the wrong expiration times entered (i.e. ours initially were all set for 2,000), so if the installer put the actual warranty hours in (full or pro rated?) then some significant lamp life is being wasted IMHO.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-01-2010 08:49 AM

quote: David Zylstra
I think since digital has an expriation notification we are seeing more lamps changed earlier than normal - i.e. 35mms lamps required someone to discern that the lamp needed to be changed; digital comes up with a flashing "lamp life expired" message which spurs the staff to immediately change the lamp because, after all, the computer says the lamp has is now bad, right?

Hopefully you've trained your staff to think change it because if it's 1 minute out of warranty it WILL explode and take the reflector, heat filter and Dolby wheel [Eek!]

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Tom Bert
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 134
From: Belgium
Registered: Apr 2010

posted 07-01-2010 08:56 AM

Did you guys see many cases where damage went beyond the lamp house? I thought the UV-filter added a level of protection that is sufficient in the majority of explosions?

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Michael Riley
Film Handler

Posts: 52
From: New Jersey
Registered: Apr 2010

posted 07-01-2010 10:16 AM

Regal is going to be all digital next year. All of the NYC area theaters are all digital, so I assume they're trying to convert the union run places first. I'm not sure why Rave is going to bother converting the National Amusements places they took over, as a lot of them are real dumps that should have been closed years ago, let alone converted to all digital. The last time I was at their locations in Southington and Berlin, CT I could see the tumbleweeds blowing across the lobby on a Friday night.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-01-2010 10:53 AM

quote: Tom Bert
Did you guys see many cases where damage went beyond the lamp house?

YES! This IS the single biggest risk with the "in line" type of design. Christie and CInemecanicca are built this way. A more efficient design certainly but with some definate risk involved. The heat filter is just not thick enough to stop the shards from a 4 or 6 kw lamp from going through. The heat filter is ~1/8" thick or less. I've seen explosions ruin Dolby 3-D wheels (8 to 12K to replace depending on model) and the input end of the integrator whose price depends on model but is way less expensive then the Dolby wheel! Projectors like BARCO and NEC whose lamphouses are right angled from the integrator input offer at least some protection from shards damaging the above mentioned components. Replacing your lamp before the warranty expires is the single most important piece of insurance you have against lamp explosions.

Mark

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Martin Brooks
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 900
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: May 2002

posted 07-03-2010 07:41 PM

quote: Michael Riley
Regal is going to be all digital next year. All of the NYC area theaters are all digital, so I assume they're trying to convert the union run places first.

I don't think that's accurate. I'm constantly surprised how often a print I'm seeing in Manhattan is film. They might be all digital in the sense that every booth will have digital, but it seems to me that many of the 35mm projectors will also stay in place.

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