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Author Topic: Best 3D for a HUGE screen
Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 01-19-2011 03:26 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As a customer, I avoid giant sized screens when digital 3D is in use. Digital 3D works far better on modest sized screens. Additionally, 2K DI sourced material and 2K digital projection works best on modest to small sized movie screens.

The only thing that really works well for showing 3D on giant sized screens: true IMAX 3D. We're talking dual 15-perf 70mm projection and material that was originated in IMAX 3D.

I have not been very impressed with all the 35mm to IMAX DMR blow ups. Video-sourced blow ups to IMAX are worse. Giant sized blur-O-vision. The 3D might be bright enough but the lack of native detail blown up that big is just too bad to tolerate. Throw in the hectic editing pace (and maybe even some shaky cam) typical of current Hollywood films and that makes the giant blurry mess even more confounding to watch. Movies made specifically for the giant screen demand far fewer edits; gotta give the viewer a chance to take in the huge image. But with the image looking like ass I guess it's necessary to hurry the hell out of the editing pace.

Obviously there's enough people out there who don't know better since various theater chains are installing more screens based on their own flavors of Lie-MAX. I'm just not going to pay the IMAX-style premium for that nonsense.

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Amanda Mundin
Expert Film Handler

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From: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Registered: Sep 2005


 - posted 01-19-2011 03:36 PM      Profile for Amanda Mundin   Email Amanda Mundin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So should using an anamorphic increase light output by approx. 1.3x for all digital scope set-ups?
What is the rough cost of an anamorphic for Digital Cinema?
Also all 2k scope films we get say their image is 2048x858, would a different file be needed for digital or do you just program either the server or projector to squeeze the image into a different shape/resolution?

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Frederick Lanoy
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From: North of France
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 - posted 01-19-2011 04:39 PM      Profile for Frederick Lanoy   Email Frederick Lanoy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Guttag
As for Xpand...there is no dual projector solution, that I am aware of, since they are an active glasses solution..they depend on only one eye showing at a time.
"Up" (Disney / pixar) was shown in a Xpand dual projector solution at Cannes in 2009. But, i don't have details on the set up of the machine (Christie's projectors).

I wasn't there but some people at Cine Expo in 2009 told me that it's was still too dark. Yet, the screen is not that massive (20 meters per 8 meters high).

According to me, the perfect solution doesn't exist in this configuration. Dual Dolby 3 D with a serie 2 projector seems to be the best alternativ but the light effeciency of the system is less than 11 %...

My two cents : forget the Real D XL on such a big screen. Silver screen = hot spot and two much noticeable ghosting.

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Tony Bandiera Jr
Film God

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 - posted 01-19-2011 07:00 PM      Profile for Tony Bandiera Jr   Email Tony Bandiera Jr   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
And for cripe's sake, whatever you end up doing INSTALL MASKING!!!

Remember that the perceived image WILL be brighter and sharper with black surrounding it instead of an expanse of blank screen.

IF you want to use one of American Moron Crapema's ETX screens try to find one with masking in use, if such exists.

I agree with Joe, go with IMAX 15/70 if you really have such a hard-on to do 3-D, which I predict will die out again in the next 3-5 years. [Big Grin]

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Jake Spell
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From: Johns Island SC
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 - posted 01-19-2011 08:25 PM      Profile for Jake Spell   Email Jake Spell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Haha, the screen is currently running 35mm and DOES have masking which will stay. No matter how sharp the edge is.

As for IMAX 15/70 I wish. That is what was originally installed and we still have holes in walls from where they removed the old projector.

quote: Jack Theakston
Bigger does not equal better in 3D.
I remember seeing somewhere that the reason that IMAX 15/70 3D was so good was because it had huge screens, TONS of light, and it was dual strip film.

quote: Frederick Lanoy
forget the Real D XL on such a big screen
Already have, the screen curve and heavy downward tilt (~11 deg) would make aligning the optics impossible, and we would lose about 60 seats for 3D, at least IMAX did on the plans.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

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From: Annapolis, MD
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 - posted 01-19-2011 11:08 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Amanda,

If you use side-movable masking for Scope (scope is wider than flat), then yes, in a typical cinema environment, I always recommend anamorphics. You don't get 30% more light...it is closer to 23%...maybe a tad more.

The cost of them vary based on the manufacturer selling them. In the states, I think Christie is the cheapest, Barco the most expensive. In fact, Barco barely mentions them and only, sort of, supports them on the "B" series, not the "C".

The means to deal with the anamorphic is built into the TI boards/software. I don't think Barco is putting the anamorphic factor on their software anymore so that would need to be set on the TI software and saved to the appropriate Barco file. Christie definitely still has the factor as does, I believe NEC on their software. In any event, it is set to 1.26 (the amount of anamorphic squeeze). This will merely stretch the height of the image (only) by 26% so when the anamorphic comes down, the width will be spread by 26% to make everything proportionally correct again. Thus, you use all of the pixels on your projector to fill your largest screen. Note, this does NOT increase your resolution (you can't get detail from what isn't there)...but you do reduce your magnification of your pixels in the vertical plane and you get the best light throughput.

-Steve

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Frank Angel
Film God

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From: Brooklyn NY USA
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 - posted 01-19-2011 11:27 PM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There is nothing saying you have to use the entire screen either. Since your room sounds like it is fairly shallow, it might solve much of your brightness quest by utilizing a more reasonable screen width. Better to have a smaller screen than a underlit image.

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Dick Vaughan
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From: Bradford, West Yorkshire, UK
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 - posted 01-20-2011 03:34 AM      Profile for Dick Vaughan   Author's Homepage   Email Dick Vaughan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
IMAX are still doing some 1570 installs. They are putting in a 3D GT system in to Toronto's Cinesphere replacing system #1. See thread in Large Format forum.

If you are interested in seeing a digital vs 1570 shoot out there's a 2 day event in Galveston next week that you should try and attend.
http://digitalcinemasymposium.com/

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Pietro Clarici
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From: Foligno (PG) Italy
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 - posted 01-20-2011 11:29 AM      Profile for Pietro Clarici   Author's Homepage   Email Pietro Clarici   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Guttag
(...) As for Xpand...there is no dual projector solution, that I am aware of, since they are an active glasses solution..they depend on only one eye showing at a time.
You can definitely use a dual projector setup with XpanD. One of the most famous theatres in Italy uses a stack of Christie XBs on a 30x16,5 *meters* Perlux 180 screen. Obviously, with shutter glasses both projectors still have to work in triple flash at the same time.

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Marco Giustini
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 - posted 01-20-2011 12:32 PM      Profile for Marco Giustini   Email Marco Giustini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve,

I am skeptical about the anamorphic because of the scaling process: how is its quality?

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

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From: Annapolis, MD
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 - posted 01-20-2011 08:02 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It isn't a bad scaling like you might think... it is a fixed linear type of scaling. Furthermore, it is only in one dimension. The anamorphics are where you are more likely to get artifacts. Only ISCO and Schneider, to the best of my knowledge made/make them. Their quality is pretty high.

But, aside from the light, when you merely zoom the image...you are enlarging all of the pixels and all of the artifacts within your projector (convergence, space between the pixels...etc) so you need to compare the zoomed image with the scaled/stretched image and honestly, in a typical cinema, nobody is going to pick off the anamorphic as the inferior image.

I would be less inclined to use an anamorphic in a review room situation. However, their screens are so much smaller as to not have as much of an issue with light.

However, in a conventional theatre...I'll go further to say, if you have side masking, you are doing it wrong to just zoom the lens...the anamorphic is the superior result when you add up all of the pros and cons.

Before you knock it...give it a try.

-Steve

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Brad Miller
Administrator

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From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
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 - posted 01-20-2011 10:01 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve is absolutely correct. I did an anamorphic on a 65 foot screen not too long ago and the result was FAR superior to zooming.

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Kurt Zupin
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From: Maricopa, Arizona
Registered: Oct 2004


 - posted 01-20-2011 10:33 PM      Profile for Kurt Zupin   Email Kurt Zupin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Dick Vaughan
IMAX are still doing some 1570 installs. They are putting in a 3D GT system in to Toronto's Cinesphere replacing system #1. See thread in Large Format forum.

This is actually an upgrade from the previous system that was there, Good old #1. But as far as new installs into "new" locations. They don't do them, if you want to pay a good price. Sure they will be glad to build or refurbish a GT and install it for you. Its going to cost you 7 figures though, not really cost effective.

quote: Jake Spell
I wouldn't say that were trying to recreate IMAX, just that we are offering something different and better.
Your not going to be able to offer something better then what IMAX can, you may be able to offer something that is almost on Par with it. But not better.

quote: Tom Petrov
IMAX does not really care how close you are to the next theatre. We have two sets of cinemas in the GTA. The Paramount vs AMC Yonge/Dundas and the Coliseum vs AMC Courtney Park. The theatres are very close. The AMC theatres are playing Green Hornet while the Coliseum/Paramount are playing TRON.
If there are already multiple IMAX locations in the city/area your looking. Then the odds of you getting the brand name and equipment is slim to none. A friend and I called IMAX business development about opening a location in Phoenix to see what the chances were and get a ball part price on startup. Just to see what it would cost really, and they said that IMAX is happy with the number of locations in this market and would not be willing to open more. So if they already have some in OP's market, his option for LieMAX is gone.

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Marco Giustini
Film God

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From: Reading, UK
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 - posted 01-22-2011 02:56 PM      Profile for Marco Giustini   Email Marco Giustini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Guttag
Before you knock it...give it a try.
I will.

What is the final improvement in light emission, taken into consideration that the lens itself uses some of it?

I mean, has someone ever measured the difference in light on screen with or without anamorphic? Said that, I appreciate what you say about less artefacts due to the reduced magnification.

Thanks

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 01-22-2011 07:46 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If you believe the literature...it is one thing (higher)...I'm finding that it is on the order of 23% improvement over just zooming the lens.

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