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Topic: will five front channel sound ever make a comeback?

Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 01-28-2011 10:40 AM

quote: Bobby Henderson
the lossy data compressed digital sound formats still get billing on movie posters and end credits while the higher quality 24-bit 5.1 channel uncompressed Linear PCM track is never mentioned at all.

Hell, they don't even put the movie's title on some posters anymore...why would they want to bother with a silly little thing like a sound format?

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 01-28-2011 03:22 PM

I still see DTS credited at the end of certain movies these days, not Datasat. They use the home DTS logo as well. Bottom line is that I don't think anyone really cares anymore, sad as it is.

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009

posted 01-28-2011 04:16 PM

I think the crowd's involvement with sound ended with the introduction of digital and THX. Everything more advanced is just to diverse to communicate or talk about.

I think only a very small percentage of moviegoers ever really knew what THX was.
Yet it was a well known 'trademark' for high end surround sound for most of them. I rarely heard anyone talking about 'Dolby'. The THX trailer was really effective in that sense. I think you just can't top it with all the stuff that came afterwards.

Everything following multichannel, subwoofer and digital is too complicate to communicate. And there's too many logos nowadays anyway.

- Carsten

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 01-28-2011 10:21 PM

quote: Bobby Henderson
The advertising situation today is very different from how it was back in the late 1980s when you could open a newspaper movie ad and see a big 70mm logo listed above a block of movie theater locations.

That's probably because digital sound has become the norm. It doesn't cost the studios anything "extra" to release 35mm with digital tracks. It's become standard operating procedure for them.

70mm, on the other hand, was never SOP. It was an added distribution expense, but it was an expense that was justified since the 70mm houses outperformed the 35mm houses. One gets the impression that 70mm was regarded as a "necessary evil" for the distributors. An evil that they were all too anxious to rid themselves of when digital sound on single-inventory 35mm became a reality.

Anyway, the special listing block in the ads was part of the necessary evil -- they were going to the trouble and expense and they wanted to capitalize on it.

The practices and economics are different today.

quote: Carsten Kurz
I think the crowd's involvement with sound ended with the introduction of digital and THX. Everything more advanced is just to diverse to communicate or talk about.

Agreed. It's not exactly what Holman meant when he mentioned asymptotes (in his 10.2 demonstration/lecture) but I must admit, this is what I was thinking.

Besides, I wonder how many of the theatre OWNERS on here would HONESTLY take down their screen and rewire and retool for 5 screen channels. I expect many would SAY they'd do it. But would they really go ahead and shut down a screen and write the cheque to make this happen? Especially knowing that Le/Re has come n gone twice...

...and considering the EX fiasco...

...and now 7.1

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 01-28-2011 10:50 PM

quote: Carsten Kurz
Everything following multichannel, subwoofer and digital is too complicate to communicate. And there's too many logos nowadays anyway.

I don't agree. The public has little trouble remembering multiple brand names, especially if the people doing the marketing work are doing their jobs effectively. For example, I'd have no trouble at all naming 10 different brands of computers, HDTV sets, soft drinks, potato chips or restaurant chains. I could probably do the same for numerous other product categories. I think I can name at least 10 movie studios, with perhaps a couple or so being defunct studios.

quote:
That's probably because digital sound has become the norm. It doesn't cost the studios anything "extra" to add the digital tracks. It's standard operating procedure for them.

It is true 5.1 digital surround sound has become the standard audio format for the majority of movie theaters, but not all. 5.1 digital is pretty common in home setups, but not in every home either. There's not much special to it, particularly when we're talking about the old lossy compressed formats.

However, LPCM 5.1 is better than the old formats. Jumping up to 7.1 should be even better than that. Yeah, Blu-ray can do lossless and uncompressed 7.1. But lots of movie theaters were still advertising 5.1 and even 5.1 EX when DVD was doing 5.1 as well as 6.1 Discrete.

Ultimately the movie studios and theater operators would just need to get out the message "hey, this sound we're presenting is something you can't recreate in your home." That would be true in the case of 5 stage channel audio.

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 01-28-2011 11:05 PM

Oh, Bobby...

You and I both know it would only be a matter of time before it became available in the home. I believe the only reason we have not seen "five across" in the home is that there just isn't enough content. And the reason there isn't enough content is that the format has not proven to outsell "three across" theatrically.

As for 5.1 not being the norm for all THEATRES, it certainly is the norm for PRINTS being released today.

As for theatres that are still playing analog sound...

WTF? -- It really isn't that costly to implement, is it?

As for theatres not promoting their sound systems: I had an experience with a multiplex that had different sound systems in different houses -- DTS, SRD and Analog -- and management did not want to go to the trouble of specifying which movies were in the digital houses because they didn't want to have to keep track of that. (Especially since the ads had to be submitted in advance.) They wanted/needed the flexibility to move top sellers to the larger theatres. Some movies bombed upon opening and, in that case, they'd get "bumped" to a smaller house which usually did not have digital sound. Also, some houses were capable of playing SRD and DTS - the managers were afraid they'd advertise the wrong one. And, in the case of DTS, nobody ever had the confidence that the discs would show up in time for opening day. Lastly, the owners didn't want to call attention to the fact that some of their screens were better, while some were "less than." This is a similar philosophy to the notion that "every seat is the best seat in the house."

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 01-29-2011 12:04 AM

Yes, with digital technology just about any kind of digital media that can be played in a movie theater can in theory be played in the home. But how many people are going to go to the trouble? Despite the availability of discrete 7.1 audio on Blu-ray I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of Blu-ray player owners have speaker setups of 5.1 channels or less.

Commercial movie theaters have a lot more space and capability to install sound systems that dramatically surpass the capabilities of what people can stick into their living rooms. It's relatively easy for anyone to accomplish a 3 channel stage in the home using a traditional pair of stereo tower speakers and a center channel speaker. What do you do for the LE and RE speaker channels?

I think the movie theaters that are charging big premiums above standard ticket price have an obligation to reach higher standards of presentation quality as well as offer experiences in image resolution and audio one cannot recreate in the home. "Lie-MAX" doesn't deliver that. It's only offering 2K resolution and standard 5.1 audio. I can pretty much get that on Blu-ray. Theaters aspiring to premiere class status need to be delivering top of the line experiences as well.

On theaters showing 35mm but still with analog sound, I agree: WTF? With so many movie theaters getting rid of film equipment it would seem there would be a surplus of dormant DTS, Dolby Digital and SDDS processors laying about. Nevertheless, a great deal of movie theaters are still playing analog sound. The 12-plex in our local mall still has most of its screens equipped only with analog sound. Most of the theaters in small towns around in this region are showing 35mm with stereo optical audio. And this is despite the fact a few small town movie theaters do manage to invest well in their theaters.

The Washita Theater in Cordele, Oklahoma (a town of 2000 people) is THX certified and can play movies in Dolby Digital. Canadian, Texas is an even smaller town. The Palace Theater in that town not only is THX certified, but it also has a 4K Sony digital projection system. So, yes, about those other places that can't even manage to move up to 5.1 digital audio on 35mm: WTF?

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 01-29-2011 12:07 AM

quote: Bobby Henderson
But how many people are going to go to the trouble? Despite the availability of discrete 7.1 audio on Blu-ray I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of Blu-ray player owners have speaker setups of 5.1 channels or less.

Exactly the point that's being made -- The general public doesn't care.

quote: Bobby Henderson
I think the movie theaters that are charging big premiums above standard ticket price have an obligation to reach higher standards of presentation quality as well as offer experiences in image resolution and audio one cannot recreate in the home. "Lie-MAX" doesn't deliver that. It's only offering 2K resolution and standard 5.1 audio. I can pretty much get that on Blu-ray. Theaters aspiring to premiere class status need to be delivering top of the line experiences as well.

But how big is your screen? I'm afraid this is one of those areas where "size does matter."
And do you get your Bluray day-and-date?
More important - how good is your popcorn? [Big Grin]

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Aaron Garman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1470
From: Toledo, OH USA
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 01-29-2011 12:24 AM

One of our local first runs was running 11/14 houses with digital sound, but I know its dropped as systems have broken down and not been fixed. I can bet the lack of care comes from the imminent switch to DCinema.

The discount house has no digital sound anymore, despite it having at least a few back when GCC ran the joint. Add to that, the past two movies I've seen there have been in mono. A serious WTF?!

AJG

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 01-29-2011 12:48 AM

quote: Manny Knowles
Exactly the point that's being made -- The general public doesn't care.

I don't think the situation is that simple. Sure, some people don't give a flying fart about sound or picture, but then some of those people would pay to sit in lawn chairs and watch the movie projected on a bed sheet hanging from a clothesline.

Home theaters aren't as complicated to set up as a movie theater system, but they're still kind of a pain in the ass. Not too many people are going to look forward to upgrading to 7.1 by replacing their receiver and then having to run twice as many surround speaker leads through the attic or under the floor. Plenty just live with 5.1 in the house and put off that upgrade to 7.1 for later. That doesn't automatically tranlate to 7.1 surround or five up front making no difference in the movie theater.

quote: Manny Knowles
But how big is your screen? I'm afraid this is one of those areas where "size does matter."

For five up front in the home screen size definitely matters. IMHO most HDTV sets, even ones in the 52"-60" range, aren't nearly big enough to make 5 up front audio worthwhile. I think you need a pretty large projection screen in order to do it right. Very few home theater setups feature that.

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 01-29-2011 01:02 AM

...and I don't think it's as simple as you're making it out -- with the bed-sheet example.

BTW the same "pain in the ass" attitude you're describing is what will keep established theatres from doing Le/Re.

The only way something new will overcome the PITA factor, is if it can be proven that the format earns more revenue for the theatre(s) that have it.

Five across has come and gone. Twice.

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Jarret Chessell
Master Film Handler

Posts: 288
From: London, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jan 2009

posted 01-29-2011 08:56 AM

quote: Bobby Henderson
I don't think the situation is that simple. Sure, some people don't give a flying fart about sound or picture, but then some of those people would pay to sit in lawn chairs and watch the movie projected on a bed sheet hanging from a clothesline.

I guess you wouldn't be up for my backyard movie nights... with 16mm movies in MONO. The simplicity of setting up one stage channel is a nice break too. I've never had a complaint about the presentation (I had one neighbour ask why the picture was red from my dvd).

...but on the other hand, these events are more about the beer anyway.

As far as home cinema, I really only bother with 5.1. It seems like a lot of expense for setting up 6.1 or 7.1 if most movies aren't mixed for it anyway (I'd imagine most cinema setups use this line of thinking as well) adding extra front speakers seems silly in that scenario as well.

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 01-29-2011 10:55 AM

I can see why the five-across idea isn't ever going to catch on. There are too many owners who think 3-across is just fine. Our screen here is 30 feet wide (wall to wall) and our previous owner didn't even think 3-across was necessary....he thought you needed at least a 40 or 50 foot screen to even notice the separation.

As for the various sound formats and etc....it's not so much that the public doesn't care, it's just that they are not into specifics. Lots of people don't even know what brand of car they drive. I would guess 90% of people could not tell you what brand of TV is in their living room. My wife loves good sound but I would wager she does not know or care how many channels our theatre system is.

We've had digital sound here since the mid 90s and to this day, nobody has ever asked me what brand of processor we have, or how many channels we have, or even whether we have subwoofers or not. All they really want to know is, "Does it sound good? Yes? Ok, I'll take two tickets."

I have always thought that the biggest selling point in theatre vs home is the SIZE of both picture and sound. Even with a good home system, you're probably still in a dinky 15 x 20 foot room at most. Just on physics alone, a good sound system in a theatre will blow that home sound out of the water. Add to that the fact that the vast majority of people don't have that good of sound anyway; they put a couple of speakers on a wall and call it good.

This is why the postage-stamp sized mall theatre screens need to go away. THIS is what the home market is better than. A real good theatre system with a big screen and big sound will blow every home system away.

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Jonathan Althaus
Master Film Handler

Posts: 435
From: Bedford, TX
Registered: Dec 2008

posted 01-29-2011 11:34 AM

I run a 15 screen, and when we were full 35mm, we only had 4 screens with digital sound. The other 11 didn't even have split surround. At one point all 4 had DTS, but then we stole a 650 from another theatre. Now we have 5 dlp screens and 10 35mm, 8 of which are still analog and have a single surround channel. We still have 1 dts house and 1 dolby.

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009

posted 01-29-2011 12:04 PM

quote: Bobby Henderson

'I don't agree. The public has little trouble remembering multiple brand names, especially if the people doing the marketing work are doing their jobs effectively. For example, I'd have no trouble at all naming 10 different brands of computers, HDTV sets, soft drinks, potato chips or restaurant chains. I could probably do the same for numerous other product categories. I think I can name at least 10 movie studios, with perhaps a couple or so being defunct studios.'

You are writing this in a professional-dedicated film-handlers forum. Are you representative for 'the crowd'?

Besides that: Even if someone remembers a cinema sound logo or brand - he has no means to qualifiy it. Shaking subwoofers - yes. Sound coming from the surround - yes. 'Digital' - yes. But 7.1? No One except some nerds ask for it. The crowd expects good sound in general nowadays. But that's it.
Why should that encourage any theater owner towards an investment? Some with regard to competition and dedication probably will.

But 'a comeback'?

- Carsten

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