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Author Topic: High Frame Rate (HFR) digital cinema Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 11-16-2011 12:06 AM                     Indeed Joe! One of the best demos that was done was in the old MGM Grand Movie Theater back in the late 80's or early 90's during Showest... back when you were just a pre schooler. Mark  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 11-16-2011 05:57 AM                     Currently there is no standard for 'real' multirate DCPs, but anything else than 1:2 relation would be too difficult to get right anyway. It is definitly possible to have at least 24fps AND 48fps in the same feature - you just double 48fps footage frames where needed. There needs to be some tweaking in post to get the motion blur right, but that is no big deal. You can also simply shoot 'normal' footage in 24fps and double these frames into 48fps with the original blur. 24/24/24/48:48/48:48/48:48/24/24/24 That way you could have effective 24fps where you want it and real 48fps in action shots. Technically, the whole feature would be 48fps, but parts of it would look like 24fps. Wouldn't hurt any specs. If you see it that way, it would simply be another creative style option to choose for the film-maker. No one forced into 48fps in general. I'm quite sure we will see this happen as soon as HFR takes up 'speed' ;-) For now, it seems that most people actually pursueing HFR do it only for 3D, where the intent is slightly different, more on the technical/3D vision perception side. I doubt that anything people have seen on showscan previously can be compared to narrative mainstream footage. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-16-2011 07:10 AM                     I seem to recall that when DT did his research on ShowScan, he found that 60fps was where there seemed to be no benefit at going higher using test audiences. They tried 72fps and it was a point of diminishing returns. Furthermore, they also found that when watching HFR movies that the audience fatigued easily (not of the story...as Hollywood has shown any frame rate can do that) but physically, they felt worn-out. It appears that he is changing his story to suit is needs of the day...big surprise. -Steve  |  IP: Logged Jussi Siponen Film Handler Posts: 75 From: Mikkeli, Itä-Suomi, FINLAND Registered: Jan 2010 posted 11-16-2011 09:23 AM                     quote: Mark Lensenmayer Is is possible to change the frame rate within the movie? Have action scenes at a high frame rate and quieter scenes slower? It's at least possible to put clips with different frame rates on a single playlist. Servers need to support reels of different frame rates within a single clip for this to be really useful -- or we're back to splicing reels(* together to build a show. (* Well, clips really. But you know what I mean.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 11-16-2011 08:16 PM                     quote: Steve Guttag Furthermore, they also found that when watching HFR movies that the audience fatigued easily Steve... I happened to follow Siskel & Ebert out of the Showscan screening at the MGM Grand and one remarked to the other that they doubted that anyone could take "Raiders Of The Lost Ark in this format as it would be way to intense". So the same would apply to 60fps Show Scan and that may be why the films were all short jobs.  |  IP: Logged Victor Liorentas Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 800 From: london ontario canada Registered: May 2009 posted 11-17-2011 05:20 PM                     When Douglas Trumbull gave up on Showscan for feature films he said that he was not sure if Showscan was ideal for a full length feature. He said it may be to invasive for a full length feature. So either he is changing his mind or believes it is good for 3dee or who knows. It would be a cool experiment to make a great emotional epic like Titanic and compare it's impact at different frame rates!  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 11-17-2011 06:36 PM                        Invasive? That doesn't make much sense. I also don't understand the fatiguing part, either. I can play 60fps videogames for three hours straight and not get fatigued. Likewise, I don't get fatigued when watching 60fps video. What I don't like is that it is aesthetically displeasing. If camera bobbles around too much, you can get motion sickness. This can even happen in 24fps material. Its just that 60fps looks more amateur. Showscan shimmered and the higher framerate did not make the ride feel more realistic to me. In fact it didn't feel like I was moving at all, just sitting in a seat that bobbed and tilted. I've played driving videogames which felt more like actual movement than Showscan. 15/70 IMAX also feels more like real movement than Showscan.  |  IP: Logged Victor Liorentas Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 800 From: london ontario canada Registered: May 2009 posted 11-17-2011 07:28 PM                     I never saw any shimmering in Showscans short films at the Showscan done right theaters i attended. I saw what looked like the best film presentation of 70mm material ever! Hands down,court adjourned and game over! The problem for me was I wanted more! Like a real feature length film! If shimmering occurs it must be because the modified Century's or what not were self destructing from the high speed they were never designed for. Of course with Digital HFR the theater will just shimmer to pieces until the building sinks into the ground.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 11-18-2011 04:37 PM                        Nope. They were the exact same Showscan projectors as these here except with high-powered Christie lamphouses. It was projected to a tiny screen, maybe 20 feet in width. It was bright, but that's the only good thing I could say about it. The show was about some old miner and I think we were riding in a mine cart or something like that. It was extraordinarily dumb and uninteresting. I did it (for free) JUST to see the 70mm in action and was left unimpressed. It was also dirty. But since Showscan is sooooo damn hard to install according to you guys, I guess it is rare to see it "done right". I guess it is good that film is going away since things like Showscan are above the ability of Showscan technicians to install, much less any techs here.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 11-18-2011 07:02 PM                     "These here" Showscan projectors are the same ones used for the ride seat shows in Vegas and they looked decent when I went there. At least the electronic projectors had a primitave sort of regestration going on with a sensor reading the position of two perfs and the sprocket doing the correction at the end of pull down. The problem there and what obviously ruined this installation was the use of an ORC console! The best demos I saw were actually done with highly modified JJ's with a twin pin cam and gigantic sprocket on the outermittent. During the demo at the MGM grand back when Joe was a preschooler you could hear that JJ literally screaming in the back ground during the quiet parts of the screening... I think Brad was runing that 16mm projector in Jr. High about this time... This was way before "Brad Miller and Associates"... Dam I'm getting old, pass me a Bud Light please! Mark  |  IP: Logged

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