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Author Topic: Upgrading 2K to 4K John Roddy Expert Film Handler Posts: 114 From: Spring, TX, United States Registered: Dec 2012 posted 09-02-2013 02:48 PM                        For what it's worth, we replaced one of the DP2K-32B's in my theater with a DP4K a while back, and I couldn't notice any negative differences in the image quality. If anything, it looked to be a little richer, though that could just be the result of freshly calibrated colors. I'm not sure what the effect would be from just upgrading the engine in a DP2K, but I'd imagine it's the same thing.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 09-02-2013 03:34 PM                     What kind of lens did you have in that 32B? If you don't have a Minolta lens, for all practical purposes you're not going to resolve anywhere near the 4K of resolution. Even with a Minolta lens, you won't resolve all of it. This is due to a horrible lens mount design of which they have still yet to fix inducing vibration into the image. It affects all "B" series Barcos, but is particularly awful if a non-Minolta lens. The phenomenon is similar to having high heat on a 35mm system. Often just putting a heat filter in place will resolve a LOT more resolution that was captured on the film but not seen on the screen pre-heat filter due to lowering the flutter. Honestly 4K on the Barcos is a waste of money in my opinion. Then again so is 4K on a Sony with RealD (since hardly anyone actually pulls the RealD out for 2D shows).  |  IP: Logged John Roddy Expert Film Handler Posts: 114 From: Spring, TX, United States Registered: Dec 2012 posted 09-02-2013 03:52 PM                        I'm fairly certain it is a Minolta lens. The one in the DP4K was a brand new one that was purchased with the projector (the old DP2K was just moved to another house, lens included). The image on screen with the DP4K is definitely a much finer resolution, and it looks very stable to me. Of course, I don't really get to see that very often. We only get one or two 4K movies every blue moon.  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 09-02-2013 07:35 PM                     I believe it's an In-Vision lens, but don't quote me on that. Memory ain't what it used to be. Agreed about the vibration - it would kinda be a waste to go 4K with vibration. (Unless we decided to go ahead and "brand" it as "4K VBX") But what's your take on the claim that contrast takes a hit when upgrading to 4K? And if that's true, is it true for all makes/models?  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 09-03-2013 06:46 AM                     The 4K contrast ratio issue is a fact for all DLPs...not only does contrast ratio take a hit, so does uniformity across the screen. It is the dirty little secret about it. They have an issue with directing the light and the tight spacing on the mirrors. Note, the .69" projectors, which use 1/4 of the 4K chip have the same issue and hence they always have a lower contrast ratio. As for Barco and 4K, I strongly disagree that you won't resolve the 4K image...it is VERY apparent when comparing a 2K to a 4K (and I have). Furthermore, I'd rather set up a 4K projector than a 2K...it is easier to dial in an alignment when you have fine detail. That said, yes, the Barco lens mount needs to be fixed. I have some that are rock steady and some that shimmer...the weight of the lens, projector angle (more level projectors have more of an issue). Overall though...if it were MY theatre...I'd go with the 4K every time.  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 09-03-2013 09:47 AM                     Thanks, Steve.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 09-03-2013 10:24 AM                     Steve you absolutely will not resolve all of the 4K image. There's just no way on the "B" models unless you have some sort of odd secret like maybe pointing at a crazy downward angle. I'm not saying the 4K won't resolve more resolution than a 2K machine, but being set side by side next to a Christie for example, the Barco will lose.  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 09-03-2013 10:27 AM                     I do intend to look at both, the Christie and Barco 4K images.  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 09-03-2013 02:35 PM                     Even if the lens doesn't resolve the full 4k from 4k sources, I still think 4k ist the way to go, if only to get rid of the 2k pixel raster. Even upscaled 2k is better than a 2k pixel raster. However: the contrast thing is indeed quite visible. I recently attended a trade show and was able to see 4k and 2k Kinotons back-to-back. The 4k projectors had a noticeable lower contrast ratio. This large screen had almost no emergency light issues and no masking, so it was clearly visible to the trained eye. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Marco Giustini Film God Posts: 2713 From: Reading, UK Registered: Nov 2007 posted 09-03-2013 04:10 PM                     I was told the native contrast ratio of a 4K chip is around 1800:1 vs the 2000:1 of the 2K chips if memory serves. I found that sometimes you come across machines with better blacks than others. I have a question for you, I've been searching all day on the forum and no luck. I think someone mentioned a kit for the B series to try and stabilize the lens mount, made of a spring and a ball bearing? I believe someone mentioned the Barco article number as well. Am I imagining it or can someone point me to the post where that item was listed? Thanks  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 09-03-2013 04:26 PM                     Carsten, I'm blaming the tiny vibration in the lens mount more than the quality of the optics.  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 09-03-2013 05:07 PM                     Carsten, here's the info for the lens stabilization kit for the Barco DP2K-32B. BME K LENS STABILIZER UPGRADE E-Item: R8760143K Note -- In our case, the "upgrade" mitigated the vibration, but did NOT resolve the issue entirely.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 09-03-2013 05:10 PM                     Brad...when you are resolving all of the pixels...and I have...you are getting the 4K resolution. I don't even find it a close call. Just where are you basing your non-4K claim on the Barco? MOST of my Barco B series are rock steady...just a handful have had the issue of image shake. The shaky ones predominately level and ALL have had the Invision lenses that stuck out a good deal. I have some pretty critical people looking at these images too. As to the device to improve the steadiness...it has marginal help and only if you are willing to dial it in for your particular circumstance. It is part number R8760143K. It seems like only a some of the 19Bs were missing it.  |  IP: Logged Jarod Reddig Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 513 From: Hays, Ks Registered: Jun 2011 posted 09-03-2013 05:39 PM                     Even on 4K installs I find screen perfs to be the final limiting factor of screen resolution. What perf screens have u guys found to be the best for 4k?  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 09-03-2013 09:32 PM                     Steve you are misrepresenting the problem a little bit. Let's assume with a Minolta lens you can resolve the full 4K. I'm willing to say "sure" on that for the sake of discussion. But when you buy a Barco you can't specify what lens you get and Minoltas aren't available in all sizes! This means depending on your throw and screen size, you may get stuck with an Invision...and the odds are better that you will! To add insult to injury, let's say a theater spends over $50k for a Barco B and ends up with an Invision lens. So Barco has this upgrade kit...but they do not provide them free of charge, you have to spend MORE money for it to compensate for THEIR original faulty design! So the theater spends $50k and then has to spend more money to get the projector to perform properly. How is this acceptable to you and your customers? Needless to say this issue and Barco's attitude toward it has really made me take a closer look at the other options, and they are better.  |  IP: Logged

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