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This topic comprises 3 pages: 1 2 3
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Author
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Topic: dcp vs blu ray
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Marcel Birgelen
Film God
Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 07-02-2013 12:14 PM
In my opinion, the difference really depends on the actual DCP and Blu-Ray. Both can be done wrong. It usually is in no way a night and day difference and in some cases might be even almost undetectable.
Obviously, when sitting close to the screen, MPEG artifacts are visible in most Blu-Ray content, especially in bright scenes with a lot of details and sharp edges. Motion-JPEG2000 isn't the best format for sharp edges, but it seems to do a better job than H.264/AVC. Also, colors in DCP are usually better, because they're far less compressed and JPEG2000 offers a broader color space (although that's not always used).
Regarding sound: There is no technical reason why the Blu-Ray version should be inferior to the LPCM version in the DCP...
Those Blu-Rays sometimes seem to get the "home theater" makeover, that's probably where things go bad.
I've created DCPs from Blu-Ray content and with a bit of tweaking, the result is quite acceptable, but nothing will beat a proper DCP created from a loss-less master.
quote: Bobby Henderson
Dolby Atmos is the first audio format in 20 years that's actually tried to put commercial movie theaters on a level above home theater. But the rollout for Atmos is going painfully slow. The process is really expensive. And the marketing effort for Atmos hasn't been worth a damn.
At least you're helping the marketing effort a bit your own way ![[Wink]](wink.gif) .
I'm not certain if it is so much more expensive to mix a movie in Dolby Atmos. It will require adaptations to the mixing process for sure, but once you have your "Atmos Master", pulling 7.1, 5.1, 2.0 and other special mixes based on discrete channels (like IMAX) from it is just a matter of exporting it into those formats.
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 07-02-2013 01:36 PM
There's good & bad Blu-rays as well as good & bad DCPs. I don't think the aspect ratio has anything to do with it, other than the fact 'scope movies have fewer pixels to encode than taller movies in flat format.
Disc storage and file I/O technology has been improving in recent years, enough to a point I think the people in charge of DCP standards need to revise the maximum allowed bit rates. With bigger DCP files and more generous bandwidth limits it will be easier for DCPs to support deeper color bit depths and milder compression ratios (especially on 4K content).
Deep color bit depths may be necessary for things like the laser projection system IMAX plans to deploy. If the contrast levels are as great as IMAX claims the DCP imagery will need more gradial steps between absolute black and absolute white in the RGB color channels to reduce banding, noise, crush in the shadows and posterization in the highlights.
quote: Marcel Birgelen
I'm not certain if it is so much more expensive to mix a movie in Dolby Atmos.
Dolby has plug-ins for Pro Tools that streamline the Atmos track creation process. If anything Atmos is doing more to preserve the layered, object oriented nature of a Pro Tools audio project rather than the "flattened" approach of collapsing all those separate audio elements into 5.1 or 7.1 tracks of LPCM audio.
The expense to which I refer is in the movie theaters. An Atmos installation requires a new CP-850 Atmos cinema processor, which by itself is really expensive. Then there's all the additional amplifiers, speakers and wiring that has to be added to an existing sound system if the existing speakers in the sound system are good enough to be used. An Atmos upgrade to an existing theater could cost well above $50,000, especially if the theater operator chooses to install Atmos in a more aggressive, maximum configuration. From what I understand Dolby personnel are installing and setting up new Atmos systems, at least for now. After the system is installed extra costs are going to creep in with maintenance. There's a lot more speaker drivers that can be blown.
The upshot: if a theater operator is willing to pay the extra bucks to install Atmos (and do it right by putting in more than a minimal upgrade above 5.1/7.1) he'll have theater audio that clearly bests the "laser aligned" audio boasted by those IMAX Digital houses.
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Mike Blakesley
Film God
Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 07-02-2013 07:14 PM
quote: Anhtu Vu
My take on this whole debate......most ''average'' movie goers have much better eyes and hearing than you expect. The question one should ask himself is not wether they can see the difference but wether they care enough to pay more for the best possible screening and, as a venue, what's the lowest standard are you willing to accept.
You just proved in this paragraph that you don't know anything about the movie theater business. It's not a question of deciding what standard to accept. It's about showing what's available. With about 99% of older movies, you can't get a DCP so you either have to show a Blu-Ray or a DVD, or not have a show.
Also your comment about "average moviegoers" is laughable. Obviously you've never stood in a theater lobby handing out passes after a show in which the left channel went out, or the surrounds didn't work, or (in film days) you had a scratched print, or whatever. At least half, or more of the people will be surprised that you are giving away the freebies and will tell you that "it sounded/looked fine to me."
One time I accidentally ran the 2-D version of a 3-D show and even then, out of a crowd of over 100 people we only got one complaint, and when we gave passes out at the end dozens of people said it looked fine to them.
quote: Bobby Henderson
the recordings on disc have often been more elaborate and/or higher in resolution than what the commercial movie theaters have been getting.
Ah, the dreaded "near field mix" that F Hudson was raving about rears its head again! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Marcel Birgelen
Film God
Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 07-03-2013 01:22 AM
quote: Mike Blakesley
Also your comment about "average moviegoers" is laughable. Obviously you've never stood in a theater lobby handing out passes after a show in which the left channel went out, or the surrounds didn't work, or (in film days) you had a scratched print, or whatever. At least half, or more of the people will be surprised that you are giving away the freebies and will tell you that "it sounded/looked fine to me."
It’s a great gesture you’re actually handing out passes after a screwup, even if most people didn’t notice it, I would definitely appreciate it.
The vast majority of moviegoers doesn’t have a clue about the technical details involved in cinema. Even if they notice or have the idea that something is off, they will probably don’t know if it is supposed to be that way or not. So if the LF channel suddenly went silent, I’m quite certain many people will register that something is somehow different, but most of them will probably not be distracted by it or even be able to pinpoint the problem.
Obviously, if you point people to the problem, most of them will actually become aware of it. So if you would play a badly compressed trailer in H.264/AVC and the M-JPEG2000 version right afterwards and even point them to the differences, the differences will become quite clear to most people. But even then, there will be those, who will really not see the difference...
People seem to be more triggered by other factors than real quality. That’s what IMAX actually understood with their dreaded Digital IMAX format. They made the picture look “big” and bright, but didn’t bother about the resolution, as most people won’t even notice the pixels. They will notice the brightness although. As for the sound, their format isn’t any better than plain 5.1 LPCM, most Digital IMAX installations don’t even have the height channel anymore. What they did is boost the sound, make it sound really loud, with tons of bass. From the moment that laser-alignment-optimization crosscheck-trailer is running, you’re being hit by a wall of sound. I’ve been to plenty of 15/70 (aka real) IMAX presentations and the sound was never this loud. It doesn’t matter that the sound system itself is anything but sophisticated, people will remember that it was awfully cool, because it was freakin’ loud and you could feel it in your bones...
quote:
Ah, the dreaded "near field mix" that F Hudson was raving about rears its head again! [Big Grin]
I guess that Bobby was pointing at the fact that for example the maximum bitrate of the Dolby Digital AC-3 stream for DVD content is 448 kbit/s, whereas the 35mm version is stuck at a maximum of 320 kbit/s. So, in this regard the home theater offers a potentially better sound quality than the theater.
As Bobby put it, there has been little effort the last years, to give the theater a real technical advantage compared to home theaters. Blu-ray offers essentially the same resolution as 2K DCPs (although, usually at a lower overall picture quality) and uncompressed discrete sound channels are also available in both formats.
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Terry Lynn-Stevens
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1081
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Dec 2012
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posted 07-03-2013 09:28 AM
quote: Marcel Birgelen
People seem to be more triggered by other factors than real quality. That’s what IMAX actually understood with their dreaded Digital IMAX format. They made the picture look “big” and bright, but didn’t bother about the resolution, as most people won’t even notice the pixels. They will notice the brightness although. As for the sound, their format isn’t any better than plain 5.1 LPCM, most Digital IMAX installations don’t even have the height channel anymore. What they did is boost the sound, make it sound really loud, with tons of bass. From the moment that laser-alignment-optimization crosscheck-trailer is running, you’re being hit by a wall of sound. I’ve been to plenty of 15/70 (aka real) IMAX presentations and the sound was never this loud. It doesn’t matter that the sound system itself is anything but sophisticated, people will remember that it was awfully cool, because it was freakin’ loud and you could feel it in your bones...
I will have to agree with you here, don't listen to Mike. The average person does not care about the technical aspects of "resolution" of a DCP. IMAX did get it right by making their product a very well marketed idea.
The average person will also never know that a surround or left channel was not working.
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Anhtu Vu
Film Handler
Posts: 98
From: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Registered: Jun 2013
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posted 07-07-2013 02:51 PM
quote: Mike Blakesley
You just proved in this paragraph that you don't know anything about the movie theater business. It's not a question of deciding what standard to accept. It's about showing what's available.
Mike...relax, take a pill my friend....This whole topic is about comparing the quality of a DCP to a bluray of same SAME film.
And i stand 200% bedind what i say....DCP vs Blu ray of the same film...DCP looks better by a mile, not even close.
I can't speak for everyone but, YES, one can draw the line as to what format is acceptable for screening and that's exactly what i did when i became in charge of our cinema room. Only DCP, HDcam SR and MOV/MXF file are accepted. The files must follow our very strict technical requirement. We do NOT take DVD or BLuRay.
Since establishing these norms, the quality and, especially reliability, of our projections improved dramatically. I've had nothing but praises from our clients.
quote: Mike Blakesley
One time I accidentally ran the 2-D version of a 3-D show and even then, out of a crowd of over 100 people we only got one complaint, and when we gave passes out at the end dozens of people said it looked fine to them.
Wow and you're proud of the fact that since nobody in your theater can see the difference you presume ALL movie goers are just as dumb and clueless ??? I guess it's because of assumptions such as these that projection qualities are going down the drain. We definitely have different standards!
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Marcel Birgelen
Film God
Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 07-07-2013 04:29 PM
quote: Anhtu Vu
Mike...relax, take a pill my friend....This whole topic is about comparing the quality of a DCP to a bluray of same SAME film.
Maybe you should also take one of them, or rather two...
quote: Anhtu Vu
And i stand 200% bedind what i say....DCP vs Blu ray of the same film...DCP looks better by a mile, not even close.
As has been pointed out here before:
1) It all depends on the source and the way the DCP or Blu-Ray has been done. There are plenty of examples of both being done wrong.
2) There are many people that will not know that you're showing them a Blu-Ray version. Maybe some people might notice the difference if you show them a DCP as a comparison, but usually, people don't get the privilege.
That being said, you should always try to give the audience the best possible presentation. If there is a DCP and that's better than the Blu-Ray, you obviously should go for the DCP. Also, DCPs are usually easier to play in most theater environments. That's why I've generated DCPs from Blu-Ray content. Note: that did not improve the actual quality in any way, rather the other way around, but I will assure you: nobody really noticed...
quote: Anhtu Vu
I can't speak for everyone but, YES, one can draw the line as to what format is acceptable for screening and that's exactly what i did when i became in charge of our cinema room. Only DCP, HDcam SR and MOV/MXF file are accepted. The files must follow our very strict technical requirement. We do NOT take DVD or BLuRay.
Besides from DVD, which usually contains just low res interlaced content which looks really ugly on decently sized screens, those other formats don't say shit about the quality of the actual contents. They're just container formats.
quote:
Wow and you're proud of the fact that since nobody in your theater can see the difference you presume ALL movie goers are just as dumb and clueless ??? I guess it's because of assumptions such as these that projection qualities are going down the drain. We definitely have different standards!
To the defense of Mike, no he obviously wasn't proud of it, it was a mistake and he pointed out that this is not the standard way he operates. He used this example to prove his point.
I've been to quite some shows that were messed up to some extend and nobody didn't seem to bother. I've once watched a reversed 3D show and nobody, even the people that worked there understood my issue.
So, it proves: A lot of moviegoers are rather "dumb and clueless", at least to a certain extend. That still is no reason to threat them that way:
- Even the "dumb and clueless" deserve to get the best possible presentation. Maybe they might not directly notice the difference, but I'm sure a bit will stick.
- There is a sufficient amount of moviegoers that does still care and know stuff, and a lot of them are frequent visitors.
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Mike Blakesley
Film God
Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 07-07-2013 04:45 PM
quote: Anhtu Vu
Mike...relax, take a pill my friend....This whole topic is about comparing the quality of a DCP to a bluray of same SAME film.
You just don't get it do you. My point is that A DCP IS NOT ALWAYS AVAILABLE. If you want to run a movie and you can't get a DCP you have to show a Blu-Ray, that's just all there is to it. Last year we had civic group who wanted a sponsored showing of Madagascar 3. The studio (stupidly, for sure) would not provide us a DCP but we played it on Blu-Ray, and the sponsors (and the kids) loved it. Would you have rather I said "Sorry, we can't get that in the premier format that we want to use, so you're screwed -- pick another movie, and by the way, it can't be a Disney."
quote:
quote: Mike BlakesleyOne time I accidentally ran the 2-D version of a 3-D show and even then, out of a crowd of over 100 people we only got one complaint, and when we gave passes out at the end dozens of people said it looked fine to them.
Wow and you're proud of the fact that since nobody in your theater can see the difference you presume ALL movie goers are just as dumb and clueless ??? I guess it's because of assumptions such as these that projection qualities are going down the drain. We definitely have different standards!
Where did I say I was proud of anything? You just keep proving over and over how naive you are about real people in real situations. If you read this forum at all, you should know that I'm as passionate about good projection (and good management) as anybody here.
First, you don't know how many people could see the difference. Very likely lots of people NOTICED there was a problem, they just didn't choose to say anything. We didn't get more complaints because most people here aren't complainers.
You apparently work in a specialized environment. I work in a real, normal, average (well actually, I think it's above average) movie theater in an average small town. As for people not knowing the difference...maybe they were so caught up in the movie they didn't know or care that things weren't flying at them.
Another possible reason we didn't get more complaints could be that our audience knows I'm there most every night making sure our presentation is as top-notch as possible. If something is a little off they just assume it will be taken care of, because in the vast majority of situations, that's what happens.
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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today
Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99
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posted 07-08-2013 12:06 AM
Of course DCP will usually look better than Blu-rays, especially when it comes to image compression. Obviously this varies DCP to DCP and BD to BD, but I think it also depends on how well your projector is set up. The better it's set up, the more you'll notice the difference. But still, it would be fun to do blind tests with some people in this thread. Throw them in an auditorium, start playing some vidya and say "Tell me if this is Blu-ray or DCP if you want to live". Of course 9 times out of 10 they'll think it's a trick question and guess Blu-ray. But it would be silly to say that ALL DCP beats out ALL Blu-rays 100% of the time.
By the way, what the hell is up with Warner Bros? Why do they compress more? Do they feel by creating smaller DCPs that they are saving on shipping charges or something? "Well our movie is several gigabytes smaller than other movies of comparable length so it should weigh less and cost less to ship!"
quote: Anhtu Vu
And i stand 200% behind what i say.
That's impossible unless you clone yourself. It's like asking someone to give 110%. Can't be done because no matter how much they give, they'll always need to give 10% more than that. How cruel.
quote: Anhtu Vu
relax, take a pill my friend
quote: Dennis Benjamin
I think several people need to take a chill pill.
quote: Marcel Birgelen
Maybe you should also take one of them, or rather two...
It's like I'm at a party and strange people are pushing new drugs I've never heard of to everyone.
Also, home sound mixes are almost always, according to our good friend F, remixed with idiotic near-field mixes. This should not be blamed on DTSHDMA or the fact that it's coming from a Blu-ray. F says that the studio personnel care super-hard about creating just the right home viewing experience so they make the sound engineers muck with things. Not to bring up an old argument, but they really don't care. That much is obvious. My point is that Blu-ray could be better than it is in many ways. But it's still not the ideal format.
Also, how many of your automations can handle a Blu-ray in a playlist complete with trailers, etc... playing it right from the start of the movie? No FBI warnings, no menus, no other nonsense several shows per day with minimal to no human interaction. To my knowledge, only one automation can do this.
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