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Topic: UPS back up for Barco 23B an 20c

Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012

posted 07-07-2013 04:56 PM

quote: Scott Norwood
Is it common to put the entire projector on a UPS? That seems like it could get very expensive very quickly just to prepare for what should be a rather rare event. Do these theatres have generators as well, with the UPS just being there to allow time for the generator to start up and stabilize? I would think that there would be other issues with running a theatre during a power outage (no HVAC, emergency lights on in auditoria, no ticket machine/cash register, etc.).

It surely isn't common to put the whole projector on UPS. If you do that you will indeed also need to put all the other power-hungry stuff like amps on UPS to keep the show running.

If you're living in an area with unstable power, you might consider to have those things on UPS too, but in those cases, a big central UPS will quickly become an interesting option, that will also make a generator setup much easier. Still, the costs involved are horrendous and I've never seen such a setup in a cinema yet (which obviously doesn't mean it isn't being done).

HVAC is something nobody will put on a UPS. Even big data centers run their HVAC systems solely on generators. The short interval between the blackout and the time the generator kicks in should not be a problem.

Emergency lightning is, at least around here, required to have its own backup batteries and in case of a blackout.

Lightning, Auditorium lights, cash registers, etc. can all be on generator only. If the power goes out, people have to wait a minute or 5 before everything is back up, but I don't suppose that's a big deal. Lights should be back up once the generator kicks in.

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Tony Bandiera Jr
Film God

Posts: 3067
From: Moreland Idaho
Registered: Apr 2004

posted 07-09-2013 09:02 PM

quote: Marco Giustini
Barco is as easy as Christie are. There is a small IEC to IEC lead where the power switch is. If the lead is in place, the mains will power both electronics and lamp. If you disconnect it, you disconnect the electronics supply and you can connect your UPS IEC lead to the male socket.

Thanks for that info Marco!! [thumbsup]

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Dave Macaulay
Film God

Posts: 2321
From: Toronto, Canada
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 07-12-2013 09:02 AM

The Barco 10s/10sx projector does not have the UPS jumper and a UPS would have to carry the entire projector. You could sense the power loss and have the lamp shut off immediately but the UPS would still have to supply the lamp power for a short time.
You can do a bit of (pretty simple) internal rewiring to have the electronics only on UPS power. However, Barco will not help you with that (ie tell you how to do it) since it voids the projector's electrical certification (UL, CE etc) - that may be an issue with your insurance... and the warranty may be void as well.
All the other series 2 Barco projectors have the UPS jumper. There's probably a way to do it with their S1 projectors as well, I haven't tried with one though.

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Jason Burroughs
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 654
From: Allen, TX
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-14-2013 08:15 AM

quote: Marcel Birgelen
HVAC is something nobody will put on a UPS. Even big data centers run their HVAC systems solely on generators. The short interval between the blackout and the time the generator kicks in should not be a problem.

Not necessarily. While rare, there are some data centers that DO have CRAC/CRAH units on separate UPS systems, in addition to generator. Depending on typology, it may be necessary to meet Tier IV requirements. This becomes even more important with closely coupled cooling. a 20+kW rack will quickly generate a thermal excursion.

Depending on the requirements, it may be cheaper & better to put in a larger, central UPS, as the chances of them being a double-conversion is greater. Power quality and reliability is much higher than those line interactive UPSs, that are common in the >2kVA ranges.

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Louis Bornwasser
Film God

Posts: 4441
From: prospect ky usa
Registered: Mar 2005

posted 07-14-2013 11:21 AM

Broadcast facilities (AM, FM, TV) solely use generators, except for computer based equipment which uses UPS.

Generators "come up" in 12-25 seconds. This is good enough for transmitters and lighting. You would have to add reboot time for the computer based equipment. This makes "good enough" into "not good enough."

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Mike Moreno
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 200
From: culiacan sinaloa mexico
Registered: Jul 2008

posted 05-06-2014 01:52 PM

i fwe only protect the electronics of the projector,server, sound procesor and one amplifier (central) is there something someone did to make the projector pause the show?
like a pulse send from the ups to the server so it pause the show.

mike morneo
mexico

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Marco Giustini
Film God

Posts: 2713
From: Reading, UK
Registered: Nov 2007

posted 05-06-2014 05:01 PM

You just need a relay. When power is removed, it closes the 'pause' GPI.

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Mike Moreno
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 200
From: culiacan sinaloa mexico
Registered: Jul 2008

posted 05-06-2014 05:38 PM

thanks MArco

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Jason Burroughs
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 654
From: Allen, TX
Registered: Jun 99

posted 05-06-2014 06:54 PM

A double conversion UPS will always be preferable to an on-line UPS. Especially with electronics that are sensitive to input voltage shifts.

On-line UPS constantly adapt to input voltage through buck/boost transformers, and you can see voltage variations depending on Utility conditions. Some On-Line UPS's allow the output voltage to drop as low was 90 volts or lower before switching to batteries.

Double Conversion UPS's will always provide a consistent output voltage, regardless of input voltage. This is because power is always going through an AC-DC/DC-AC process.

A good explanation and demonstration can be found Here

There are certainly 208V single phase UPS's available on the market. These will be found in the more "serious" UPS manufacturers, such as Liebert, Eaton and APC.

The investment to put the entire cinema system (not just electronics) on a UPS can be cost prohibitive, unless the area is prone to very, very frequent power fluctuations and outages.

Also keep in mind the life span of the batteries selected. Gel batteries typically seen in smaller UPS's have a life span of approx 3 years. Some VRLAs last 3-5 years. The more often a batter is "hit" the shorter its lifespan.

Additionally everything should be protected by TVSS.

Ideally projection booths would also be on a separate distribution system from the rest of the house (including HVAC units), particularly those theaters with kitchens, behind its on K-factor transformer. This will help with cleaning up the "dirty" power typically seen.

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Fred Schoenfeld
Film Handler

Posts: 49
From: PORTSMOUTH, VA
Registered: Aug 2004

posted 05-11-2014 02:20 PM

WHEN WE DECIDED TO RESTORE AN OLD 1945 SINGLE SCREEN HOUSE BACK IN 1987, I DECIDED TO INSTALL A 40KW GENERATOR (208 VOLT, 3 PHASE) POWERED BY A 200 HORSE FORD ENGINE, RUNNING OFF OF NATURAL GAS. COST OF THE UNIT THEN WAS AROUND $15,000. I WIRED EVERYTHING IN THE THEATRE, EXCEPT FOR HVAC AND HEAVY KITCHEN EQUIPMENT (WE ALSO HAVE FULL FOOD SERVICE) WITHIN THE THEATRE THROUGH THE TRANSFER SWITCH. AT THAT TIME WE HAD TWO 35 MM SYSTEMS THAT WOULD SHUT DOWN WHEN WE HAD A VERY SHORT POWER INTERRUPTION; SINCE THE GENERATOR HAS A 10 SECOND START DELAY.

I ALSO DECIDED TO INVEST IN A EATON 12KW BATTERY BACKUP (TRUE ALWAYS ONLINE) UNIT THAT WOULD KEEP EVERYTHING IN THE BOOTH ONLINE, EXCEPT FOR THE LAMPS.

THIS HAS WORKED VERY WELL AND SINCE CONVERTING TO DIGITAL 2 YEARS AGO, IT HAS SAVED OUR SHOWS FROM EVER BEING OFF SCREEN. I DON'T RECOMMEND THIS FOR MOST HOUSES, BUT SINCE WE ARE A HISTORIC, SINGLE SCREEN THEATRE, IT HAS PAID FOR ITSELF MANY TIMES OVER!

WE EVEN HAD A PERFORMANCE WHEN A HURRICANE HAD KNOCKED OUT POWER TO THE ENTIRE REGION! WE ALWAYS GET COMMENTS WHEN THE ENTIRE DOWNTOWN IS BLACKED OUT, EXCEPT FOR OUR OLD MARQUEE!

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 05-11-2014 02:31 PM

quote: Dave Macaulay
The Barco 10s/10sx projector does not have the UPS jumper and a UPS would have to carry the entire projector.

The NC-900 is set up exactly the same way. But at 220 volts it's total current draw is only about 6.3 amps with the lamps at 100%. So a 1500 VA ups is still realistic and gives about 15 minutes of run time for the whole system with SX-3000, touch monitor, switch and ECNA-5.
Not sure what the Barko draws... If you're running a 2kw lamp I can imagine you're gonna need a lot larger UPS, say 3000VA minimum for a fifteen minute run time.

Don't forget that many Tripp lite UPS's are available with external battery hookup. You can use a much larger external battery pack for much longer run times (recharge will also be longer). This is a less expensive route than going with a really large capacity UPS when you don't need the VA capacity... and you just need the extended run time.

We also use 220 volt double conversion Smart Online UPS's exclusively except on my TMS systems. No reason not to go 220 volt and the current draw is usually about half on any given piece of gear. You will usually get longer equipment run times just by using a 220 volt version.

Mark

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Ethan Dutcher
Film Handler

Posts: 26
From: Maitland, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2014

posted 06-25-2014 08:53 AM

I am also looking into protecting our Barco DP2K-15C, judging by the comments here it seems I have two options. First is purchase a 1500VA 220V UPS and run a second 220V line to the UPS, remove the jumper from the back of the projector and hook the UPS up to the male port. The second is to purchase a 5000VA(or something that can handle our 3000W lamp) and hook that directly up to the L6-30P connection on the projector.

It seems like the first option will still have us lose our lamp during brownouts but help prevent needing to restart/turn back on the projector. So there will still be show stoppage but less downtime. The second option should seemingly keep our lamp running during brownouts(I'll also be getting a UPS for the server, Obviously sound will still go down).

Being summer in Florida we have numerous storms a day and we had 4 brownouts in one week recently. It seems to be affecting the lamp life in addition to our show interruptions. I have only recently started here, but our 3kw lamps have been getting replaced at around 800 hours due to failure. Can I assume that the 5kVA unit might help us get some extra life from our bulbs, or does this not seem like it would cause lamp damage?

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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 06-25-2014 11:12 AM

Fred, why are you shouting? My brain hurts.

quote: Tony Bandiera Jr
The most sense is to UPS the projector and server, the sound processor is irrelevant in a way since the amps will shut down.

Since we are not talking about keeping a show running during a power outage, it wouldn't be necessary to protect the processor in that regard, but it does make sense to put it on a UPS or at least a power conditioner or surge suppressor or something like that so that it isn't damaged. Am I wrong?

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Dave Macaulay
Film God

Posts: 2321
From: Toronto, Canada
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 06-25-2014 05:29 PM

If you have a UPS it makes sense to put the sound processor, D-A, scaler, network switch, Jnior... all these low-power devices don't add up to that much (maybe 100W total?) and having the added surge/brownout protection is worthwhile.
Have a plan for what to do if (when?) the UPS fails. This has been an occasional problem and causes considerable confusion on site. We tend to plug the server in with one cord on UPS power and one on surge protect only, Doremi servers at least start beeping angrily with one PSU down. When we get a call that something isn't working and there's a shrill beeping, it helps point towards the culprit. The UPS itself will beep in some failure modes but they can also just go dead silently.

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