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Author Topic: Booth internet access?
Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-30-2014 11:44 AM      Profile for Mike Blakesley   Author's Homepage   Email Mike Blakesley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Those clocks exist but they are expensive.
Why are they expensive? I have a $29 clock/weather station thing in my bedroom that is not even connected to wi-fi but it still connects to the "master clock" in the cloud somewhere and updates itself and is 100% accurate all the time. Why can't these $20,000 servers do that?

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-30-2014 12:48 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Harold Hallikainen
I believe the clock within the media block can only be moved something like 6 minutes a year, and that is enforced within the media block.
On at least one brand of server there is a back door into it where time correction can be done. It is a DCI approved method and only the manufacturer is able to do it... This way no time correction script is needed.

Mark

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-30-2014 02:21 PM      Profile for Mike Blakesley   Author's Homepage   Email Mike Blakesley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Look at all the money they could save if they would just connect a $20 device to read the time off of the cloud.

What am I missing here? The idea of a COMPUTER in the year 2014 needing to have a factory technician remote in through a "back door" to set a clock is completely stupid, isn't it?

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 04-30-2014 03:03 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Via NTP...everyone's clock "should" be accurate.

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Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012


 - posted 04-30-2014 04:58 PM      Profile for Marcel Birgelen   Email Marcel Birgelen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Mike Blakesley
Why are they expensive? I have a $29 clock/weather station thing in my bedroom that is not even connected to wi-fi but it still connects to the "master clock" in the cloud somewhere and updates itself and is 100% accurate all the time. Why can't these $20,000 servers do that?
Well, NTP is actually exactly this, instead of fitting all machines with their own atomic clock, we sync it to a large bunch of atomic clocks (like those in GPS satellites). It's actually a very nifty protocol, it compensates for most timing defects, latency issues and it is also reasonably capable of protecting you from abuse (like some evil third party trying to skew your clock). It dates back from before we were all surfing the web, has its roots in UNIX and has quite a proven track record. It has some security issues though and it is being used in DDoSes lately, that's why you do not want to expose your own NTP services to the world, you just want to use "the world" as your reference clock. Also, the original (and still best idea) of NTP is that you run one or two NTP servers on your local network which are then being used by all your clients on that network to sync with. Nowadays, it's pretty much overkill to use a dedicated server for NTP, many routers and firewalls can be NTP servers too, or you can run it as a service on another server. This NTP server, in turn, synchronizes with the servers in the cloud.

If you set up this correctly, there are almost zero security implications, no nasty firewall hacks needed and all your machines do run (yeah, ALMOST) exactly the same time. There is also very little maintenance involved.

quote: Frank Cox
I'm frankly a bit surprised that NTP is allowed. I'm not a NTP expert but wouldn't it be possible to set up a "fake" NTP server to gradually shift the time on a server and/or projector? Which then creates it a security hole in the key system.
The whole DCI security model relies on keys being valid during a certain period of time. It's not like the KDM automatically transforms once it becomes valid and self destructs once it expires, so they tied it to a timer. They're only capable of pulling this off, because of the Pandora's Box design of the media block.

I already mentioned it, but if you do NTP correctly, it will not allow you to shift the clock beyond certain limits. But even that doesn't matter.

Like Harold already mentioned, the media block maintains its own clock. It even has a separate battery to power this clock. That's the only time that matters for your KDM. Since this clock on your media block isn't totally accurate, you're indeed allowed to make small corrections, with some predefined maximum adjustments in a given year.

If the clock in your media block somehow skews too much off track because of e.g. a battery failure or inaccurate timer, your hardware becomes a support case...

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Joris Springer
Film Handler

Posts: 83
From: Almere, Flevoland, The Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2007


 - posted 05-01-2014 06:25 PM      Profile for Joris Springer   Email Joris Springer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We once had a hardware failure like that, caused the server to run 30 minutes behind. Not a nice day when that happened, luckily the movies kept working properly, just had to change the schedule for that booth until the new IMB board came (which came quite fast) and the new KDM's arrived (which averagely takes around a week for all movies :-( ).

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Chris Slycord
Film God

Posts: 2986
From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea
Registered: Mar 2007


 - posted 05-02-2014 12:57 AM      Profile for Chris Slycord   Email Chris Slycord   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
If you could control the UTC refrence up or down it theoretically might. It should follow what the the master clock is doing which may be the internet, a GPS locked NTP server or some goofy clock you devise that you can speed up or slow down... You still have to convert what ever clock to issue NTP protocol.
What he's saying is he sets up a server that responds like a normal NTP server except purposely gives the wrong time. A rogue NTP server if you will.

But that threat is only valid if you presume that people will start using it. And even if that server made its way into the regular regional official pool, nothing would happen since the local server likely has a close-to-right clock and the rogue one would be out of the range for updating and in the average case his server would be periodically not used (since you connect all the time to random servers in the pool).

So a rogue one would have limited effectiveness at screwing stuff up, imo.

Although similarly, all these people would come into a theater saying "online it says this" and I've always wanted to tell them I can make a website that only shows wrong movie times.

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Dennis Benjamin
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1445
From: Denton, MD
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 05-05-2014 09:38 AM      Profile for Dennis Benjamin   Author's Homepage   Email Dennis Benjamin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I walked into a theatre once and asked how things were since they went digital. The manager almost started to get emotional over the fact that their movies were never starting at the correct time. They had to adjust thier automated schedule start times to compensate for the 'server drift' that was occuring. At any point at this 9 plex theatre - their servers were off anywhere between 1 and 7 minutes. I told them that they need to contact their tech and get the servers to connect to an NTP server. That problem was fixed pretty quickly.

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Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012


 - posted 05-06-2014 04:28 AM      Profile for Marcel Birgelen   Email Marcel Birgelen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Chris Slycord
So a rogue one would have limited effectiveness at screwing stuff up, imo.
As long as the NTP implementation on the clients is according to specs there is indeed not a big chance for this attack to proceed.

One thing that might be notable though is that there are machines configured to do a "hard sync" on an NTP server during a reboot. As far as I know, none of the current DCI equipment is actually doing this, but there is equipment out there with this kind of behavior.

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