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This topic comprises 4 pages: 1 2 3 4
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Author
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Topic: I never knew Digital Projection would come to this
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Leo Enticknap
Film God
Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 07-09-2016 11:51 PM
It boils down to considering the total cost of ownership and operation of a projector, not just one element of it. If your goal is to have a system that delivers an image with a given brightness, resolution and contrast range over a specified lifetime before the next capital investment is made, you've got to add up a number of factors:
1. Purchase and installation price of the hardware (initial investment)
2. Cost of operation (employee hours, electricity, HVAC needs, etc.)
3. Cost of planned maintenance, per the manufacturer's recommendations
4. Likely cost of emergency repairs/unplanned maintenance (educated guess based on the reputation in the field of the projectors you're considering)
5. Cost of disposal at the end of the planned lifetime
From what I've been told, the problem with the Sony LCOS projectors is that 1 looked very attractive at first glance and the image quality achieved by a new or well-maintained projector also looked very attractive; but 3 and 4 were way higher than those of competing technologies, with the result that in many installations, 3 didn't happen.
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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!
Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 07-10-2016 02:16 PM
Sorry Claude...I've said it before and I'll say it again...if you sucked at showing film based movies, you'll suck at showing digital based movies. The same forces that caused one to be poor apply to both. Sure, when the box is shiny new it is going to do better but day-by-day, year-by-year, it is going to age and degrade, if not kept up and you will get a situation where things just suck. Also, you have people that don't understand light at all recommending people to put in gain screens under the lie that one needs less light to light them. If you increase the gain by 2 and drop your light in half, you've done just that, cut the entire light in the system by half. Sure, the DEAD-CENTER of the screen will be at the same brightness as before but EVERYWHERE ELSE will be notably darker.
Another thing I'll say again...if your screen gain is above 1.3, and the screen is flat, you will NOT meet SMPTE/DCI specs. If you set your center brightness to 14fL (48cd/m), then your overall brightness will be too low. Lower gain screens are better with matte-white being the goal.
Even in 3D, one reason the silver-screen 3D systems look dark is that they are starting with that 2.2+ gain screen and, typically, a low center illumination level.
As for contrast...there are many factors that go into it and the lower the maximum illumination, the lower the potential contrast. If you don't take care of your system and let your lenses and other optics get dirty/dusty, there goes your contrast...don't take care of that port glass and let it be smudged or dusty...there goes your contrast. Think it is a cool idea to do a boothless cinema and NEVER pay attention to that projector or make it so prohibitively difficult to fool with...what do you think is going to happen to the projection quality?
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Leo Enticknap
Film God
Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 07-10-2016 06:58 PM
quote: Marco Giustini
...but I am not yet prepared to accept that the best system is the one which can survive longer with less maintenance.
One of the ways in which digital projection was marketed aggressively to theater owners was by claiming that it would eliminate a major cost base of their operation, namely projectionists. What we have seen is that in many situations, this has ended up being a false economy, because most projectionists in most theaters did a lot more than stick bits of film together, thread them up and press the button. At the very least, they performed routine, minor to intermediate maintenance tasks (e.g. changing belts and intermittent oil, cleaning reflectors, checking bulb alignment, etc.), and in some places (especially smaller chains and independents), they did higher level maintenance and emergency repairs as well. The projectionist's job even extended outside the booth in some theaters, encompassing basic maintenance on HVAC systems, box office IT, you name it.
With no qualified technician of any description routinely working in the building anymore, all of this needs to be done by service techs making a special trip to the site. While the task of putting a DCP show on the screen can be done by someone without the level of technical aptitude needed for the same task with 35mm, digital systems still need maintenance and that still has to be done by a qualified technician.
The result? A significant number of theaters are scrimping and saving on this maintenance, and the presentation quality is suffering as a result. So while I wouldn't go as far as to claim that a system that can maintain a given performance level for longer without maintenance is "better" than one that needs more frequent maintenance, in the business environment that digital cinema systems are used in, it will definitely deliver a superior service to a theater's customers in the majority of venues.
I'd be interested to see an economic analysis comparing the cost per show of 35mm and DCP, taking into account all the relevant factors, not just the cost of projectionists in isolation: the capital cost of the equipment, operating and maintenance costs of the equipment, cost of creating and shipping the distribution media, the cost of unforeseen systems failures (platter brain wraps, KDMs failing to be supplied in time, etc. etc.), etc. etc.
My guess - and it's just a guess - is that the actual cost of maintaining digital systems so that they deliver a consistent level of quality and reliability comparable to 35mm done to an equivalent standard is actually a lot higher than promoters of the conversion to digital claimed, and that overall, a lot of the technical costs of theatrical movie exhibition have been shifted from producers and distributors to exhibitors: they haven't gone away.
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Martin Brooks
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 900
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: May 2002
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posted 07-10-2016 08:57 PM
quote: Claude S. Ayakawa
I called and spoke to an assistant manager at the Regal Pearl Highland after I had started this thread and he told me how sorry he was that I was not happy with the picture quality at their theatre and when I asked, he told me I was the the person to complain about the poor picture quality.
My experience has been that theater managers almost always say either "it's supposed to be that way" or "you're the first person to complain". But those are both ridiculous answers. The fact is that it's very hard for the average Joe to know whether what they're seeing is any good or not. Also, just because people don't complain doesn't mean they think it's good. They just may simply, as you do, have less desire to see a movie in a theater because on a subconscious level, the total experience wasn't that thrilling.
The only time I ever got a theater manager to admit something was wrong was way back for E.T. It was four-walled into "Movieland" on Broadway in NYC, which was not the usual place to see a film in 70mm, but the only Manhattan venue showing the film in 70mm. There was a 60 cycle hum throughout the entire film. I complained and there were some apparent techs sitting around and the guy who brought me to them said, "he heard the hum". They gave me a free return ticket, but what good would that have been if they didn't fix the problem? Much more recently, I've been in two theaters where the center channel was playing in the left channel. And watching 2D movies on Sony projectors with the 3D filter on has always been a freaking disaster. I always complain about that and usually ask for my money back.
There's a local theater near be that held out showing 35mm until about a year ago. They held out so long that I figured they had no interest in going digital and were going to close. But they did switch to digital and at first, the sound and projection were surprisingly good. But I went back and the focus was off. I complained and the manager told me that they just installed a 3D screen so the focus might have been slightly off. I asked why someone couldn't go into the booth and adjust the focus on the projectors and he looked at me like I was nuts. I told him, "it's pretty hard to get people into theaters today - you're just giving people a reason not to come here." Right now, they're renovating again to put in lounge seating. They obviously weren't filling the seats.
But I did see Tarzan the other day at a Dolby Vision theatre (AMC Empire 25 in NYC) and it looked really fantastic. There wasn't that much Dolby Atmos activity though, which was disappointing considering that a jungle is the perfect environment to use immersive sound.
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Buck Wilson
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 894
From: St. Joseph MO, USA
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted 07-11-2016 12:44 AM
I know a manager with that mentality. "Well no one has complained" You might not complain about getting shortchanged either, doesn't mean it shouldn't have happened.
The absolute bare minimum is the name of the game anymore, and a lot of times not even that.
I'm a rare manager that will absolutely admit wrongdoing.
"Sir, the movie was nice but these seats are disgusting and it smelled awful and was hot and humid in there. I'm not looking for a refund or anything I just thought you should know." "Oh ma'am, trust me, I know. I am very sorry, and frankly, embarrassed. We've been begging corporate to replace the seats for 5 years, and they require us to turn the HVAC off at night so the auditoriums don't properly cool or dehumidify. I am trying my best, and again, am very sorry."
"Sir, It's extremely hot out in the vestibule, and there's only one girl in the ticket box helping a really long line of people that have to wait in the heat and when they finally get up to the window she asks a hundred questions like if I want to donate a dollar to charity or if I have a rewards card or if I want to sign up for one. And why are all the ticket prices odd amounts? You need another person in there and make the prices an even amount and stop the questions so the line moves faster and put air conditioning out there" "I know, sir, I wish I could do something about this situation but corporate makes us meet certain quota for the charity, rewards cards, and payroll. I'm not sure why they chose to make our lives a living hell with the odd change... probably so they can increase prices more often without people noticing so much. Trust me, if I could do something about it, I would. I encourage you to complain to corporate, and again, I'm very sorry. I know it's bad."
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