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This topic comprises 3 pages: 1 2 3
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Author
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Topic: IMAX Digital semi-rant
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Frank Angel
Film God
Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 08-06-2017 07:06 AM
Manny, it's probably just stupid corporate policy -- their techs configure everything properly and they don't want anyone mucking around with it, which on its own is a good GENERAL policy; violation it is probably met with punishment of nastiness. It's not that they CAN'T turn it down, it's that they WON'T turn it down. And the customer is ignored because, you know, the complaining customer isn't the one who hands the manager his paycheck.
Of course, the real issue isn't how perfectly the system is calibrated to reference, it's that the ears of the audience aren't. And that's just a fact -- everyone perceives audio differently and THAT parameter can't be worked into any system tweak. The whole idea that as long as EVERY piece of audio equipment from the mixing studio to the theatre B chain is calibrated exactly to spec, then everyone in the audience will hear exactly what the mixing engineer heard, is rubbish. Problem is that PAST the theatre speakers, you've got the audience's hearing systems to contend with and they can't be calibrated. The audience's perception of volume can vary wildly due to everything from the person's age and gender to the humidity in the room. And it's not only volume -- frequency response PERCEPTION is highly dependent on the listener's hearing much more than the fact a tech can get the system to read 20-20K,+-.003db. That is why good theatre management LISTENS to audience complaints.
If I get more than 4 or 5 complaints that the sound is too low or to loud, I pay attention to that. And that, boys and girls, is why they put LEVEL controls on all audio systems. The goal of Good Presentation is not to make the tech happy when he gets his meters to all hit their mark; the goal is to make the audience enjoy the show.
That all said, I just saw DUNKIRK, unfortunately in LIEMAX not film (only because friends were wild to see it but didn't want to subway into Manhattan) And I will agree, IMAX was playing that thing at gonad vibrating levels, which for me, was fine, but the women in the group bitched and complained all the way home. The explosions were like they were going off a foot away from you; which was perfect for this film. The droning score also was just a constant, insistent presence that would have been substantially diminished if it were weren't played at that near-nerve-racking level. But I do understand how the women were affected negatively by those levels. I don't see a good solution. Maybe for anyone who comes out and complains, just hand them a pair of headphones with volume controls and be done with it. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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William Kucharski
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 244
From: Louisville, Colorado, United States of America
Registered: Oct 2012
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posted 08-23-2017 04:58 AM
quote: Frank Angel
If I get more than 4 or 5 complaints that the sound is too low or to loud, I pay attention to that. And that, boys and girls, is why they put LEVEL controls on all audio systems. The goal of Good Presentation is not to make the tech happy when he gets his meters to all hit their mark; the goal is to make the audience enjoy the show.
My issue with that is simply I want the levels to be what the filmmaker dictates, not what is too loud or too soft compared to what I'm used to; that's why I used to go out of my way to find a THX theater (when there were any around me) so that I could be sure the film was being played at reference level (and when they weren't I was on the phone to leave a message for TAP by the time I hit the lobby; ah, those were the days…)
I even wrote several letters to the editor of the local newspaper when some patrons wrote letters complaining the theaters were too loud noting the whole point of THX certification was the volume level was supposed to be set by the studios, not by the theater.
But I digress…
quote: Martin Brooks
I saw Dunkirk in IMAX 15/70 at the AMC Loews Lincoln Square NY and it was too loud IMO. I think directors have completely forgotten the idea of dynamic range. I love low frequencies, but the low frequencies in Dunkirk were so distorted, it sounded electronic which would make no sense in a movie about WWII. Other than that, the presentation was quite good. I didn't even notice the aspect ratio changes.
Then that's a calibration and/or equipment problem.
The bass on Dunkirk should indeed be loud, especially at reference level, but it doesn't distort, it's clean and crisp (and is meant to be overwhelming at times, as with Interstellar.)
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Marcel Birgelen
Film God
Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 08-24-2017 05:54 AM
Dynamic range is important. Dialogue should be easily understandable and should not sound like people shouting at each other. Explosions should be LOUD and give a nice satisfying rumble, as should do other effects. Subtle sound effects should be exactly that: subtle.
The industry has tried all kinds of algorithms to define some kind of baseline normalization for stuff like broadcast, unfortunately, it doesn't work there either.
Some film makers really look for the limits of what people can bear. Christopher Nolan is one of them. While Dunkirk was back into the realm of the acceptable, Interstellar was just plain idiotic. If you played it at reference in a properly calibrated room, the effects were so loud, it really hurt. Yet, some of the dialogue was still pretty much incomprehensible.
The same was true for The Dark Knight Rises, it also didn't help they had one of the main characters yelling through a muzzle the entire movie...
So, ideally, we should play all those movies exactly how the film makers intended them to be played. But in some cases, it's better to save them a little from themselves...
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William Kucharski
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 244
From: Louisville, Colorado, United States of America
Registered: Oct 2012
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posted 08-25-2017 02:33 AM
quote: Marcel Birgelen
Some film makers really look for the limits of what people can bear. Christopher Nolan is one of them. While Dunkirk was back into the realm of the acceptable, Interstellar was just plain idiotic. If you played it at reference in a properly calibrated room, the effects were so loud, it really hurt. Yet, some of the dialogue was still pretty much incomprehensible.
The same was true for The Dark Knight Rises, it also didn't help they had one of the main characters yelling through a muzzle the entire movie...
So, ideally, we should play all those movies exactly how the film makers intended them to be played. But in some cases, it's better to save them a little from themselves...
No, the volume in Interstellar was an effect, as was the "unintelligible" dialogue so many have complained about; it was meant to be so, once again for dramatic effect, as Nolan has explained in multiple interviews and was verified when the sound was the same way on the Blu-ray. If you want a non-Nolan example, check out the nightclub scene in The Social Network the effect is supposed to be that of a real club, where you can barely make out what Justin Timberlake is telling Jesse Eisenberg because the music is way too loud and bass heavy.
Interstellar was designed with specific loud and very loud passages and obviously, in scenes in space, perhaps for the first time since 2001, no sound at all.
If you feel you know better what works, or decide to save filmmakers from themselves, I wish you would advertise that fact so I know not to waste my money seeing a film in your theater.
I want to see it the way the director intended, unintelligible, earth shockingly loud or otherwise.
That's the whole point of reference level calibrations, whether THX or Dolby. If your theater and the sound stage are both calibrated to the same volume level, ideally what they heard on the mixing stage is what will be reproduced in the theater.
For example, most, if not all AMC houses are barely worth visiting now as I play movies louder at home than they do in the theater (once again because I have my system calibrated to reference level and try to play films at home as close to that level as practicable.)
Just as some choose not to go to movies at theaters that play it "too loud," I will have to start waiting for home video release and visit the theater less often if theaters keep turning it down further and further.
(Why? Most often to reduce bass transmission between adjacent theaters, unfortunately.)
Seeing Dunkirk in 5/70 at the Regal Continental was much more involving and satisfying than seeing it in 5/70 at the AMC Westminster 24 because, among other things, it was played at something nearer the intended volume level.
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Marcel Birgelen
Film God
Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 08-25-2017 03:23 AM
You don't need to tell me about reference levels and room calibrations.
Also, I'm not advocating dialing back the volume, only because a handful of complaints. I'd rather explain them what the deal is.
Then again, you obviously never have experienced theater operations in real life. You know, where the opinion, comfort and actual health of the people inside the theater you run matters.
The soundtrack of Interstellar was an absolute mess, Nolan needs to have his ears examined. I know nobody who ran it at reference other than for maybe the first show.
Also, "reference level" is a pretty flexible term. You know, each and every room sounds differently. Also, where you sit in a room, has a big impact on your perception. Most film makers have no or just limited clue about those factors or they simply don't seem to care. The ultimate proof is the big load of crap that's out there.
You want to play the latest Transformers movie at 7? Great, see what your customers think about the experience after two and a half hours of ear shattering sound and constant bone rattling.
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William Kucharski
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 244
From: Louisville, Colorado, United States of America
Registered: Oct 2012
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posted 08-26-2017 09:52 PM
quote: Marcel Birgelen
The soundtrack of Interstellar was an absolute mess, Nolan needs to have his ears examined. I know nobody who ran it at reference other than for maybe the first show.
Also, "reference level" is a pretty flexible term. You know, each and every room sounds differently. Also, where you sit in a room, has a big impact on your perception. Most film makers have no or just limited clue about those factors or they simply don't seem to care. The ultimate proof is the big load of crap that's out there.
You want to play the latest Transformers movie at 7? Great, see what your customers think about the experience after two and a half hours of ear shattering sound and constant bone rattling.
You've just outlined why I try to go opening night; I want to hear those films at reference level, to feel the "ear shattering assault" and bone rattling the director wanted.
Whenever I watch Interstellar at home I try to watch at as close to reference level as I can pull off, but I don't have quite the sub capability to do it justice. When that rocket takes off you shouldn't just hear it, it should viscerally rattle your core. When a Transformer hits the ground you should feel it.
You're right, I don't have operations experience, but if a theater were to advertise they ran everything at 7 (and flat out banned cell phones) I would go there, every time.
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Jim Cassedy
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1661
From: San Francisco, CA
Registered: Dec 2006
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posted 08-27-2017 12:31 AM
quote: Manny Montes
I hate when people say they can't change the sound level
on an IMAX projector, you absolutely can change it, theres
a damn setting on the projectionist terminal to do so.
I was sent out-of-state to run DUNKIRK 70mm at a large theater
in the mid-western part of the US.
They also were playing it in IMAX digital down the hall in another
auditorium. I was given a two-way radio on the theatres' "tech
channel" in case I had a any problems or needed something in my
booth.
On more than one occasion I overheard one of the assistant managers
or someone on the floor staff relaying a customer complaint that the
sound in the IMAX auditorium was too loud, and asking for it to be
turned down a bit. And so their projectionguy would lower the volume
a little, and within a few minutes IMAX was on the phone with him
wanting to know why the volume was changed. On two occasions I
was standing right next to the guy when he got the IMAX call, and
a couple of other times I heard him being paged on the radio to
"come to the phone and talk to IMAX"
So, I assume IMAX must have a NOC that monitors stuff like this.
I asked 'the kid' about it and he said that when he was learning the
system there, he was told that the volume level was 'set in the IMAX
contract". I don't know if that's actually true; I'm only repeating what
I was told, and what I observed- - which is that every time they made
a volume adjustment, or one day when a show started a couple of
minutes late- - IMAX called to find out what was going on.
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Marcel Birgelen
Film God
Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 08-27-2017 10:13 AM
quote: Jim Cassedy
So, I assume IMAX must have a NOC that monitors stuff like this.
Yes, they do have a NOC and they do monitor those settings. Although their NOC seems to be sleeping or understaffed when the European main shows are running. They usually won't call you immediately when you turn the volume down. Or maybe they just don't have the right numbers on file. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Still, monitoring some presets doesn't say anything about how it sounds in the auditorium itself. There are plenty of IMAX rooms which are far too hot and also plenty that are far to soft.
quote: William Kucharski
Whenever I watch Interstellar at home I try to watch at as close to reference level as I can pull off, but I don't have quite the sub capability to do it justice. When that rocket takes off you shouldn't just hear it, it should viscerally rattle your core. When a Transformer hits the ground you should feel it.
When I play it at 7.0 in our screening room, the stuff is a borderline threat to your hearing. I doubt you ever heard it at this level in any theater, except if you attended a few of those screenings were Nolan was present.
This room is perfectly calibrated to the point that any calibration beyond it is rather pointless, you would simply not objectively hear the difference. We were regularly going over 103 dB SPL, which in my opinion is just batshit crazy and close to the THX ceiling of 105 dB. That's louder than a jackhammer at 10 or so feet...
quote: Aron Toplitsky
And a question for anyone, what is the db difference with the fader from one number to the next? For example from 6 to 7, how many decibels will the sound increase by?
The right answer here is... it depends. It depends on your equipment for example. There is no set difference between those numbers. Some faders also have the tendency to be not entirely linear. I'd say a good guideline would be ~3 dB per 1.0 step between 6 and 8, but in the lower regions, the difference is often far greater.
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