Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: What tech to install in a new cinema in 2019?

my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home

»	Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE » Operations » Digital Cinema Forum » What tech to install in a new cinema in 2019? (Page 2)

This topic comprises 2 pages: 1 2

Author

Topic: What tech to install in a new cinema in 2019?

Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012

posted 10-09-2018 11:55 AM

quote: Steve Guttag
I think you'd be better served to go visit some functioning cinemas to see what they have done, perhaps go to a trade show or two to see what is out there than try to design a system here via committee.

I would somehow love to see how that would end (if ever). What if the people here would actually design an entire cinema by committee?

Maybe it would also immediately explain why a lot of stuff out there is so frickin' convoluted. [Wink]

| IP: Logged

Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009

posted 10-09-2018 04:40 PM

In this situative context, it doesn't make sense to use anything than the Barco Alchemy servers/IMS in every projector. Forget the 2K-8S, it is just a marketing-reduced 10S, if you want to buy cheaper than the 12C for the smaller screens, get two 10S (or two more 12C).

The QSYS vs. dedicated cinema processor thing - you would probably need to get a quote on both. In order to decide (beyond the cost), you probably need to think about possible use scenarios beyond classic cinema. That defines where you need flexibility.

As the SMPTE standard for object based audio is finished now, all of the different systems will converge on the signal level. If one would want to buy a system NOW, ATMOS would be the only usable choice (and an expensive one), but that will change quickly now. If you can wait a few months, more options will appear and be supported by the studios on a broader scale.

- Carsten

| IP: Logged

Perry Mulder
Film Handler

Posts: 6
From: Sint Jansteen, Zeeland, Netherlands
Registered: Oct 2018

posted 10-10-2018 08:09 AM

Thanks for the replies again, it's of great help to get some perspective arround this all. Yesterday we had a meeting with CinemaNext in Cuijk (Netherlands). These are the results:

3D in 2019:

We decided on 3D for 2 rooms. Using the Xpand system. This has a few reasons:

We can swap the 3D system to different rooms within 30 minutes. Incase room 1 and 4 have not enough seats for a certain title we want to have the possibility to switch one of the bigger rooms more seats. Also the technology will show better 3D results then a passive system. Only con is that we will have more handling time to clean the glasses and they are more expensive. But the biggest reason to me is that now we don't need to invest in a more expensive screen. All 4 screens can now be optimised for 2D, incase 3D becomes less interesting in the upcoming years, we don't have to incest in new 2D screens. Also most titles we will program are 2D and this way I can make sure every room will have the same image quality in 2D.

Projectors:

The projector that was adviced was a Christie. They said the Christie CP2215 would be a better fit for our needs. They adviced to place the same projector in all 4 rooms. They did say it was also possible to go with the Barco. The 10s for room 4 and 12C for the other three. 8s was like some of you already suggested not adviced due to a lack of contract. I'm not sure if the CP2215 will be more expensive then the 12C.

Sound:

Both Dolby Atmos and Auro are off the table. There are not enough filmtitles that use Auro, Auro to them was only interesting if I decided to program Bollywood movies every week. As they still do support it. I was under the impression that it would scale a 5.1 audio mix to Auro 11.1, but that is only with BluRay discs, not possible with DCP.
And dolby Atmos at the moment is too expensive for us. What we can do is make sure the cables are placed already, incase we might want to go with Atmos once it becomes more affordable. For now, all the rooms will be 7.1.

So they will make a calculation for a Q-sys platform. They said that Q-sys was a great option for us and that the speakers were great. I told them about the CORE110F including a backup and 4 DCIO-H. The amps and speakers will also be from QSC. For the theaterroom (room 2) they suggested to place 2 or 3 extra speakers in the front mounted to the ceiling, when the stage would be used. Their suggestion was to look at QSC 5152 or QSC 5122. The sound in the rest of the building, including bowling, winebar, grandcafé, restaurant, toilets, hallways will all be connected to the QSC platform with speakers from QSC.

Dolby Server

This means QSC will only handle the sound. For the DCP server they suggested to go with a dolby server DCP2K4 Showvault 4TB. with use of a Doremi (IMD). Every room wil also be equiped with a BluRay player.

4K and Laser was still way too expensive for us, they also said laser was not going to be much cheaper anytime soon.

For now I will have to await their new calculation. I will still plan a meeting with Barco via Galaxystudios. Since they are so closeby it can never hurt to visit them and see what they have to offer.

I'm curious what you guys think of the above.

| IP: Logged

Tom Bert
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 134
From: Belgium
Registered: Apr 2010

posted 10-10-2018 10:23 AM

quote: Carsten Kurz
As the SMPTE standard for object based audio is finished now, all of the different systems will converge on the signal level. If one would want to buy a system NOW, ATMOS would be the only usable choice (and an expensive one), but that will change quickly now. If you can wait a few months, more options will appear and be supported by the studios on a broader scale.

quote: Perry Mulder
There are not enough filmtitles that use Auro, Auro to them was only interesting if I decided to program Bollywood movies every week. As they still do support it. I was under the impression that it would scale a 5.1 audio mix to Auro 11.1, but that is only with BluRay discs, not possible with DCP.

Well actually, the Barco alternative (AuroMax) is already available and SMPTE-compliant today [Wink]

That solves your "Bollywood problem" since major studios releases will now follow the new standard. PS: AuroMax is more cost effective than competition [Cool]

| IP: Logged

Mike Babb
Master Film Handler

Posts: 250
From: Norwich UK
Registered: Jul 2002

posted 10-10-2018 01:05 PM

Hi Perry,

If Atmos and Auro are off the table you might consider the Trinnov Ovation cinema processor running in 7.1 for your rooms. Qsys is a nice and flexible system for sure, and the amps and speakers will be great. But personally I am not convinced of any system that runs a whole building like that, nothing against QSC though, I have used their products for years as an installer.

The Ovation offers calibration software within the box that does a really good job, looking at time, phase, impulse response, and both direct and room response. We find many customers are loving the result. The time and phase optimization tends to make 7.1 feel more immersive.

It will also take in your bluray players via optical, BNC or RCA digital. With the optional DTS and/or Dolby Digital licenses it will decode, or you can run an analog cable into the DB25. The DTS also allows an upmixer for 2.0 sources.

Besides 5.1 and 7.1 DCP, the upmixer allows for 2.0 DCP upmixing for LtRt sources, and a dual mono source will come out of the center channel as it should.

It can even feed Qsys, we have a few customers taking advantage of our optimizer while still using the flexibility of Qsys, although you should check out the price implications of that.

Obviously since I work for Trinnov, some others should weigh in with opinions if they wish. We've been installing a lot in the UK and there are over 1000 units in France. CinemaNext is certainly aware of us.

| IP: Logged

Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 10-10-2018 02:02 PM

Regardless of the make, having the same model of projector in all four houses makes a lot of sense. If you wish to keep a part with a known high failure rate in stock as an insurance policy against a lost show (an example would be an NEC NC900C ballast), then one part covers you for four screens. And if you lose one of the larger auditoria, you have the option of taking a part from the projector in a smaller one at least to protect your largest revenue source.

| IP: Logged

Oliver Pasch
Film Handler

Posts: 53
From: Europe
Registered: Jun 2002

posted 10-11-2018 01:33 AM

Hi Perry,

It will not come as surprise to anyone here that I fundamentally disagree on the recommendation and choice of projectors.

This is the year 2018. Your audience is used to high resolution and high contrast pictures on a daily basis, whether that's on any kind of mobile devices or at home in the living room on a flat screen. How are they supposed to accept the fact that the images in your new cinema will look significantly worse than anything they perceive to get almost for free on a daily basis, how is such inferior quality supposed to make them believe that the way a movie is meant to be experienced in a cinema is worth taking the time, effort and money to come to your place?

For a new cinema opening in 2019, you should not chose anything less but 4K resolution and high contrast (I am not saying HDR, but high contrast for projection of standard DCPs).

Even if - point taken - disappointingly there is still only a limited number of native 4K DCPs today, what your audience will see is still a better image without pixels. And please forget about the myth of "4K only makes sense on large screens" - all that matters is the viewing angle, which has not been discussed here at all.

Every standard 2K DCP will look significantly better with high contrast 4K projection.

You know how to contact me on, happy to have a chat.

Best regards

Oliver

| IP: Logged

Tom Bert
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 134
From: Belgium
Registered: Apr 2010

posted 10-11-2018 03:18 AM

quote: Oliver Pasch
all that matters is the viewing angle

Referring to hotspotting on high-gain screens? How is it related to resolution?

| IP: Logged

Marco Giustini
Film God

Posts: 2713
From: Reading, UK
Registered: Nov 2007

posted 10-11-2018 04:54 AM

I guess Oliver means that if you have a 5 metres wide screen and you watch it from 3 metres distance, 4K still makes sense as it would be exactly as if you were watching a 20m screen from 12 metres viewing distance. Hence, it’s not the absolute size of the screen that matters.
I can agree with that.

| IP: Logged

Tom Bert
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 134
From: Belgium
Registered: Apr 2010

posted 10-11-2018 06:30 AM

quote: Marco Giustini
I guess Oliver means that if you have a 5 metres wide screen and you watch it from 3 metres distance, 4K still makes sense as it would be exactly as if you were watching a 20m screen from 12 metres viewing distance. Hence, it’s not the absolute size of the screen that matters.
I can agree with that.

I can agree with the statement that 4K adds to the overall image quality perception. And that effect/impact becomes bigger as the image takes up a bigger part of your field of view.

What is discussable, is whether the added value weighs up to the added cost. Today, 4K still has a premium price over 2K (when it comes to cinema projectors; e.g. that's almost gone for LCD TVs)

| IP: Logged

Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 10-11-2018 07:32 AM

4K also almost always comes with a contrast "hit" for cinema projection. I'm guessing that Oliver is pushing Sony (higher contrast, always 4K).

As I suspected, they guy that probably sells mostly Christie is selling Christie, the guy that sells Trinnov, suggests Trinnov, the guy that works for Barco suggests various forms of Auro (Barco)...etc and if someone was here from QSC, I'm sure that stuff would also be the right stuff to use.

This is why I don't generally like design by committee, especially when people can have ulterior motives (there is nothing wrong with a manufacturer pushing their products; in fact, I expect it).

This is why I suggest going to see these systems in use, talking to people that live with them, going to a couple of shows to see just what is out there.

What people buy at home has very little to do with what people expect in cinema. How many marquees advertise things like "4K?" I don't know about the rest of the work but around here...zero. There is NO marquee value in 4K or 7.1. At best, you're tell the customer that you are no better than the home...never mind the color reproduction and that each image is a unique frame and the bit depth and...There is nothing there to work with, as far as consumer education. In their minds, they already have that. How many customers have come out of a 2K performance thinking that resolution was where the weakness was? Contrast...people and manufacturers have been lying about it for decades. Are we measuring lens capped versus full white, checkerboards? Is the exit sign on and the aisle lighting? Put up an alternating checkerboard...your real contrast is something in the 100s, not thousands, let alone 10s of thousands. Now, direct-view screens...they have the potential for VERY high contrast but projection is going to have issues so again, educating the customer is a non-starter.

I come back to...go see (and hear) some of these systems, in use. Talk to the people that use them and see what it takes to keep them going, what features they like, what "features" they don't like. Go to a show or two and see what else is out there.

| IP: Logged

Perry Mulder
Film Handler

Posts: 6
From: Sint Jansteen, Zeeland, Netherlands
Registered: Oct 2018

posted 10-11-2018 08:04 AM

Tnx for the replies again. Like steve suggested we will go see what else is out there. We are planning to visit Barco in Kortrijk (belgium) and Galaxystudio's (auro). We will also visit some other cinema's to see what they work with. For now, if budget allows it, we will stick to the Q-sys platform for audio, since the other investors showed their prefference for such a system. As for the projector I understand every brand and tech has it's pro's and cons. So I hope to get a better understanding by visiting other cinema's and demo rooms.

| IP: Logged

Perry Mulder
Film Handler

Posts: 6
From: Sint Jansteen, Zeeland, Netherlands
Registered: Oct 2018

posted 10-13-2018 01:29 AM

Little update: Also spoke with Oliver P. (SONY) over the phone. He is setting up a meeting for me so I can have a look atva cinema that use their projectors, within our budget. I'm excited to see what's out there.Thanks so much for all the help and suggestions again. Keep em coming.

| IP: Logged

Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 10-13-2018 07:02 AM

That is a good first move. Don't forget to see what upkeep is like (both labor and cost of parts).

| IP: Logged

All times are Central (GMT -6:00)

This topic comprises 2 pages: 1 2

Printer-friendly view of this topic

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.